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  • #91
    Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

    What is a "traditional World of Darkness story"? World of Darkness has been unabashedly political from the start. We even have a whole clan of radical political activists, look at the Brujah.

    Yes, vampire politics. As in Machiavellian schemes for control over the city's territory and resources. Trying to usurp the power of those above you, and making pawns of those beneath you.

    Not politics about what gender pronouns you wish to go by, or about the current social climate happening in the middle east. We use role playing games to escape from reality, not be reminded of it.

    Plus, one of the people working on this game is spewing some bull crap about "toxic masculinity" being present in Bloodlines 1. No idea where she got that idea from, since I'm pretty sure the first game was equal opportunity for both genders.
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 03-24-2019, 05:33 AM.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


      Yes, vampire politics. As in Machiavellian schemes for control over the city's territory and resources. Trying to usurp the power of those above you, and making pawns of those beneath you.

      Not politics about what gender pronouns you wish to go by, or about the current social climate happening in the middle east. We use role playing games to escape from reality, not be reminded of it.

      Plus, one of the people working on this game is spewing some bull crap about "toxic masculinity" being present in Bloodlines 1. No idea where she got that idea from, since I'm pretty sure the first game was equal opportunity for both genders.
      Vampire politics and human politics go hand in hand too often for comfort. Vampires infiltrate high society to influence policies and protect the Masquerade, they involve themselves into civil rights groups and activism either to further their own ends or because they genuinely believe in the causes (see my Brujah argument).

      Also I don't understand the fuss about the gender pronoun customization. It's a cosmetic choice you choose for your character, just like their hair color or clothing style, you can just have your character be cis at character creation and forget you ever seen the slider.

      And Bloodlines 1 was sexist in some parts, let's be honest here.

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      • #93
        Also the whole "escapism" thing is stupid. So many people want video games to be considered art, why not let them be art and allow video games to convey politics messages. Escapism is not art.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Yes, vampire politics. As in Machiavellian schemes for control over the city's territory and resources. Trying to usurp the power of those above you, and making pawns of those beneath you.
          Yes, because young vs. old and Anarchs vs. Camarilla totally isn't a metaphor for actual political divides.

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Not politics about what gender pronouns you wish to go by, or about the current social climate happening in the middle east. We use role playing games to escape from reality, not be reminded of it.
          You seem to be playing another Vampire than I did – compared to American rpgs of the time, Vampire was positively steeped in what is now called "identity politics" from day one, depicting unveiled homosexuality when the others were still very heteronormative. As for the middle east, did you have problems with seeing the cold war mirrored with Baba Yaga's Shadow Curtain and Brujah infiltrating the KGB? Or is it just bad when regions other than Europe and North America make an appearance ouside of being namedropped?

          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Plus, one of the people working on this game is spewing some bull crap about "toxic masculinity" being present in Bloodlines 1. No idea where she got that idea from, since I'm pretty sure the first game was equal opportunity for both genders.
          Oh well, since I've already written the text for another site:

          For the most simple example: Men aren't as sexualised as women, gay men don't exist.

          There are at least two major seductresses (Jeanette and VV), lots of female prostitutes and club-goers. Most of them are available for male and female player characters alike (because, as everyone knows, girl-on-girl is hot).
          The number of men that tried to seduce you and were halfway serious? One (Romero, if you're playing a female vampire).
          The number of men you could seduce that were conventionally attractive? Low, and all of them available only to a female character.
          In many cases, male-npc-seduction options worked on shlubs like Kilpatrik or Chunk who were played for laughs compared to the vamps Jeannette and VV. Was there even one middle-aged plain-looking lady that you could seduce?
          And while lots of women are bi (though I don't think any are actually lesbian, because hey, that would deny the male PC something), there is IIRC exactly one pair of male NPCs where one of them might possibly kinda sorta have been romantically interested in the other (Isaac Abrams to his childe).

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Cifer View Post

            There are at least two major seductresses (Jeanette and VV), lots of female prostitutes and club-goers. Most of them are available for male and female player characters alike (because, as everyone knows, girl-on-girl is hot).
            The number of men that tried to seduce you and were halfway serious? One (Romero, if you're playing a female vampire).
            The number of men you could seduce that were conventionally attractive? Low, and all of them available only to a female character.
            In many cases, male-npc-seduction options worked on shlubs like Kilpatrik or Chunk who were played for laughs compared to the vamps Jeannette and VV. Was there even one middle-aged plain-looking lady that you could seduce?
            And while lots of women are bi (though I don't think any are actually lesbian, because hey, that would deny the male PC something), there is IIRC exactly one pair of male NPCs where one of them might possibly kinda sorta have been romantically interested in the other (Isaac Abrams to his childe).
            In addition, the only ghoul you get is female and is killed off near the end for emotional points. The only female toreador NPC is dressed in skimpy clothing (yes, I know she owns a strip club, but compare her to Isaac), no male strippers in sight, female armours are more skimpy than the male ones.

            It is a game from the 2004, so yeah the content is a bit dated. That is why updating it is just smart, the world has changed a -lot.-


            Personal things I want from the game? Actual role in the politics and actual vampire party members/allies. Bloodlines was amazing, but your character was still basically kept out of the meat of VtM.


            My gallery.

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            • #96
              Plus there were mostly no female characters with any depth or any importance, and the ones who had importance had something else to hinder them. With the exception of Therese/VV (crazy as fuck) and Ming Xiao (a Kue-Jin and a Villain) the main "roles" in the society were male driven: Strauss, Nines, Jack,Lacroix,Gary, Bertram, Andrei,Isaac,Grouth and so on.





              I think the best case scenario was the Giovanni's party: you had two women and two men you could discuss with.

              The two men were :
              1) A buisness man of clear fame in trouble after a series a financial setback

              2) A normal man anguished by the knowledge he was not a real giovanni, since his mother had an affair with someone.

              The two woman were:

              1) A nymphomaniac who wanted to have sex in the mortuary of the Clan
              2) A bad girl who got HIV from her crazy life of sex and drugs.

              So normal men...and SLUTS! Because WE like SLUTS. A woman to be interesting must be either a nymphomaniac or on drugs or a psycho.
              Last edited by Undead rabbit; 03-24-2019, 08:37 AM.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                Personal things I want from the game? Actual role in the politics and actual vampire party members/allies. Bloodlines was amazing, but your character was still basically kept out of the meat of VtM.
                Not sure about those. I mean, being part of a coterie is helpful, but gameplay with NPC allies can often feel clunky, so I see why they skipped out on it. And you had some allies, depending on who you supported - you could become buddies with the Anarchs, you could ally with Jeannette, Therese or both, you could become friends with the Nosferatu warren and VV...
                As for politics, those were absolutely involved in the game. Oftentimes, it was you getting manipulated as a pawn in someone else's scheme (first example: Jeanette asking you to hand over the Ocean House pendant), but in some others, you could throw a wrench in other people's plans, like deciding whether to kill the gargoyle to curry favor with Strauss or to help Abrams by convincing the stone guy to ally with the Anarchs.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                  According to their website, the 6 clans are Toreador, Ventrue, Brujah, Tremere, Malkavian, and either Nosferatu, or Assamite.

                  The Malkavian picture shows up in the trailer, and is clearly some kind of prison / asylum type area. As for the final picture, there's a lot of reading material stacked around the room, and it looks to be some kind of basement dwelling. Which is why I can't figure out which clan it represents.
                  What no Gangrel? WTF!?!

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Gangrel44 View Post

                    What no Gangrel? WTF!?!

                    Gangrels went Independent in Revisited's metaplot and are such in V5 to my knowledge.

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                    • Originally posted by Gangrel44 View Post
                      What no Gangrel? WTF!?!
                      Eh, this is all massive amounts of guess-work right now, going from a set of pictures that maybe possibly kinda imply what clans might be in the game at launch. I'd suggest to just wait and see.

                      Originally posted by Gurkhal View Post
                      Gangrels went Independent in Revisited's metaplot and are such in V5 to my knowledge.
                      While that is true, they're still part of the Core 7 and Camarilla membership isn't exactly likely for a Thin-Blood anyway.

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                      • Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                        Eh, this is all massive amounts of guess-work right now, going from a set of pictures that maybe possibly kinda imply what clans might be in the game at launch. I'd suggest to just wait and see.

                        While that is true, they're still part of the Core 7 and Camarilla membership isn't exactly likely for a Thin-Blood anyway.
                        So it is. But I would presume that the game will still be a Camarilla and Anarch focused game as opposed to an Independent one. Hence I would think that its more likely that we'll get to see the Ministry than the Gangrel in the starting set of Clans.

                        But I could be wrong, of course.

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                        • Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                          Personal things I want from the game? Actual role in the politics and actual vampire party members/allies. Bloodlines was amazing, but your character was still basically kept out of the meat of VtM.
                          Yes, please. Also, more schmoozing with useful mortals like contacts in the police for cover ups, the media for cover overs, angry mobs to provide distraction etc. VtM, including V5, describes the spheres of influence that clans typically have quite explicitly and I'd like get some of that instead of doing everything myself and depending on mortals' security blind spots.

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                          • Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                            Not sure about those. I mean, being part of a coterie is helpful, but gameplay with NPC allies can often feel clunky, so I see why they skipped out on it. And you had some allies, depending on who you supported - you could become buddies with the Anarchs, you could ally with Jeannette, Therese or both, you could become friends with the Nosferatu warren and VV...
                            As for politics, those were absolutely involved in the game. Oftentimes, it was you getting manipulated as a pawn in someone else's scheme (first example: Jeanette asking you to hand over the Ocean House pendant), but in some others, you could throw a wrench in other people's plans, like deciding whether to kill the gargoyle to curry favor with Strauss or to help Abrams by convincing the stone guy to ally with the Anarchs.
                            I mean, Redemption had a coterie and the story worked fine with it. In 2004, Bloodlines not having allies made sense as it was actually the very -first- game that used Half-Life 2's engine.

                            But what I meant is that our PC could be actually a full member of the Camarilla, with peers to speak to and compete with. Rather than a glorified FedEx for elders of each faction. As much as I love Bloodlines, the fact is that it was very lonely as the PC was basically a pariah leashed by LaCroix. They met no fellow young vampires nor really got into the general life of a regular vampire. At most they were closer to humans.


                            My gallery.

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                            • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                              According to their website, the 6 clans are Toreador, Ventrue, Brujah, Tremere, Malkavian, and either Nosferatu, or Assamite.

                              The Malkavian picture shows up in the trailer, and is clearly some kind of prison / asylum type area. As for the final picture, there's a lot of reading material stacked around the room, and it looks to be some kind of basement dwelling. Which is why I can't figure out which clan it represents.
                              Oh, bugger. I had a nasty feeling that the Gangrel would lose out. Oh, well. Early days, and I'm sure there'll be expansions.

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                              • Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

                                Also I don't understand the fuss about the gender pronoun customization. It's a cosmetic choice you choose for your character, just like their hair color or clothing style, you can just have your character be cis at character creation and forget you ever seen the slider.

                                And Bloodlines 1 was sexist in some parts, let's be honest here.
                                I don't see much of a problem with that, either. And I apologize if my previous statement gave that impression (I wrote that at like 4 in the morning). But people over on Steam started freaking out over it.

                                Battletech did the same thing, by allowing players to choose which gender pronoun their character went by, and nobody seemed offended by it. And while I can see why that is something to be happy about, I personally don't see much of a point. If you want to play a character who identifies as either male or female, you could just make a character who is either male or female. and not have to worry about all the bigotry.


                                As for Bloodlines 1, I've played that game at least 10 times before I stopped counting, and the only sexist thing in the entire game that I can remember is playing a female character during Romero's quest. If you're Appearance attribute is high enough (like 3, I think?) You can skip his quest by having sex with him.

                                But hey, I guess Romero not being interested in having sex with male characters makes him a "toxic man" and not, you know, heterosexual?

                                That's it... pretty much everything else in the game could be done regardless if you were male or female. I'm pretty sure there were even gay seduction options, if you wanted to explore them. Two that come to mind are Tommy Flayton, and Phil from the blood bank.
                                Last edited by Nyrufa; 03-24-2019, 10:00 AM.

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