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Tremere and Their Curse: My Personal Alteration

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    Outside of the metaplot, do the Banu Haqim even contribute anything of worth to the story? From what I hear, they have almost universally been depicted as the clan that shows up to kill a target, and then leaves once the job is done. The clan's entire premise revolves around being a Murder Hobo! If it wasn't for their role in the meta plot, most players probably wouldn't even notice their absence.
    Yeah, there's a reason they were never really meant to be playable in earlier editions: they were the clan of murdering vampires, with a special murder discipline, and their true clan flaw was blackface. But they're deeply tied into the metaplot: people are already foaming at the mouth about Vicissitude turning into clan-specific Protean amalgams (which doesn't really change anything mechanically except that a Tzimisce could now buy earth-meld if they wanted), when that wasn't originally meant for player characters either. Imagine the fallout if they decided to retcon out one of the thirteen clans entirely…

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Draconis View Post

      Yeah, there's a reason they were never really meant to be playable in earlier editions: they were the clan of murdering vampires, with a special murder discipline, and their true clan flaw was blackface. But they're deeply tied into the metaplot: people are already foaming at the mouth about Vicissitude turning into clan-specific Protean amalgams (which doesn't really change anything mechanically except that a Tzimisce could now buy earth-meld if they wanted), when that wasn't originally meant for player characters either. Imagine the fallout if they decided to retcon out one of the thirteen clans entirely…

      Honestly, removing "the darkening" as it was apparently called, and expanding the clan's culture to not be inherently Muslim has made me consider playing them at some point. Even if it's just once, to see how it works out.

      I personally don't mind Vicissitude being fused into Protean. I never really paid much heed to the idea that it was some kind of alien infection turning its users into meat puppets of The Eldest. Besides, they're both disciplines which involve shapeshifting. The primary difference being Protean is more orderly and grounded in the natural world, while Vicissitude is more chaotic and fueled by imagination.

      Now, yes, I know that Protean allows you to transform into natural elements, as well as animals... and to that I simply point people in the direction of Kuldonic Sorcery, which was a hallmark of Old Clan Tzimisce.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


        Honestly, removing "the darkening" as it was apparently called, and expanding the clan's culture to not be inherently Muslim has made me consider playing them at some point. Even if it's just once, to see how it works out.

        I personally don't mind Vicissitude being fused into Protean. I never really paid much heed to the idea that it was some kind of alien infection turning its users into meat puppets of The Eldest. Besides, they're both disciplines which involve shapeshifting. The primary difference being Protean is more orderly and grounded in the natural world, while Vicissitude is more chaotic and fueled by imagination.

        Now, yes, I know that Protean allows you to transform into natural elements, as well as animals... and to that I simply point people in the direction of Kuldonic Sorcery, which was a hallmark of Old Clan Tzimisce.

        My take (when not going for straight horror) is that Vicissitude is a more specialized refinement of Protean, and I make a requirement to use it on others be to feed them one BP from the user. Essentially, the Vicissitude user takes advantage of their connection to their blood and the power in it to externalize Protean to some limited degree. Not to mention that the healing capabilities of the blood are needed for a mortal to survive the experience.

        As for your OP question, I think that the Tremere curse actually works just fine assuming that your ST is willing to play it straight. One drop of blood snuck into a Tremere and he suddenly sees you as a good friend or close ally; he isn't suicidally in love with your or the like but he is still going to view you quite favorable.

        And the Tremere are pretty much required to participate in court on a regular basis. They must be constantly on their guard even more vigilantly than a regular vampire as one slip up and their entirely political priority list can change. Imagine that the Venture primogen sneaks one drop of blood into the Tremere primogen, suddenly the Tremere become essentially vassals to the Venture in that city. Especially if the Venture is smart enough to not abuse that relationship too badly and keeps Tremere interests in mind.

        Or among the players, especially if they are mature enough to handle characters working at cross purposes in the coertie. Tons of opportunities exist to get a drop into the Tremere and from then on he goes from an acquaintance working with you for his own benefit to a close friend from college who sincerely wants your plans to succeed simply because he wants you to succeed. Now he won't take serious risks on your behalf but he will basically give you lots of "minor boon" equivalents for free and without any real expectation of a return or advantage for him.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sagacious Gamer View Post

          As for your OP question, I think that the Tremere curse actually works just fine assuming that your ST is willing to play it straight. One drop of blood snuck into a Tremere and he suddenly sees you as a good friend or close ally; he isn't suicidally in love with your or the like but he is still going to view you quite favorable.
          That's the same effect with everybody, regardless of clan. Making the Tremere unable to bind other kindred is hardly more effective than their previous weakness of being 1 step bound. Tremere can still bind mortals and ghouls, it's only other kindred that they have an issue with. And like I said, I doubt players are going around initiating blood bonds with kindred on a basis frequent enough to make the curse relevant. If they were, they'd probably attract some unwanted attention very quickly.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

            That's the same effect with everybody, regardless of clan. Making the Tremere unable to bind other kindred is hardly more effective than their previous weakness of being 1 step bound. Tremere can still bind mortals and ghouls, it's only other kindred that they have an issue with. And like I said, I doubt players are going around initiating blood bonds with kindred on a basis frequent enough to make the curse relevant. If they were, they'd probably attract some unwanted attention very quickly.

            No, a 1 step blood bond makes your emotions towards someone stronger and tends to make you unconsciously seek them out. So if the Prince gets you with a first stage bond then you are much more likely to think that he is great or terrible as opposed to merely 'meh' and are more likely to show up at Elysium.

            The second step, which for everyone else needs to occur on another night, is when you becomes friends. The third is what creates a slave.

            For a Tremere, the first sip means you have a new friend for a year.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sagacious Gamer View Post


              No, a 1 step blood bond makes your emotions towards someone stronger and tends to make you unconsciously seek them out. So if the Prince gets you with a first stage bond then you are much more likely to think that he is great or terrible as opposed to merely 'meh' and are more likely to show up at Elysium.

              The second step, which for everyone else needs to occur on another night, is when you becomes friends. The third is what creates a slave.

              For a Tremere, the first sip means you have a new friend for a year.

              I know that the Tremere only need 2 sips to be fully bound (as of V20), but I thought that was changed in 5th edition? When I looked up their new curse, I only found information saying they can't bind other kindred.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                I know that the Tremere only need 2 sips to be fully bound (as of V20), but I thought that was changed in 5th edition? When I looked up their new curse, I only found information saying they can't bind other kindred.

                Oh, yeah in V5 it became an inability to bloodbond other vamps and the Compulsion of Perfectionism; where until they get a critical win on a skill roll (or the scene ends) they get a two dice penalty on all dice pools. That drops by one for a given task each time you repeat it (so first try 2 dice penalty, second try 1 dice penalty, third try no penalty).

                In a social game the blood bond restriction can be huge (although I would have removed their ability to bond both kindred and kine if I was going with this weakness) and in any type of game the dice pool penalty can hit pretty damn hard.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sagacious Gamer View Post
                  In a social game the blood bond restriction can be huge (although I would have removed their ability to bond both kindred and kine if I was going with this weakness) and in any type of game the dice pool penalty can hit pretty damn hard.
                  For older Tremere, it can be pretty much impossible to bond kine, too: (1+Bane Severity) drinks from a Tremere are equivalent to only one drink from any other vampire.

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                  • #24
                    Replacing the Tremere curse in V5 with the Assamite curse(s) from previous editions is fine as far as it goes. Whatever floats your boat.

                    I disagree with one of your problems with the Tremere V5 weakness, however.

                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    ...completely lacking the ability to produce one in a fellow vampire isn't that much of a handicap. I mean, how often do you feature Blood Bonds in your chronicles, anyways? They take at least 3 days to fully form, and I can't imagine that players are going around creating them indiscriminately.
                    Not being able to create a bloodbond in another vampire is a big, big deal. Not, I admit, on the small scale. ("Hmm, I want to blood bond the Prince. Darn, I forgot I'm a Tremere!")

                    On the bigger scale, somewhere between an individual city's story and the meta-plot, though, it has major implications. Once the rest of the vampires figure out that the Tremere can be fed upon with no danger of being bound to the vessel, everyone with Methuselah's Thirst will declare open season on the warlocks.

                    The new weakness almost implies there's an ancient blood-god (known as the black shepherd, perhaps?) who needs a vast herd to sate his hunger when he awakens, and engineered the change in the Tremere to make the clan an all you can eat buffet...

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

                      On the bigger scale, somewhere between an individual city's story and the meta-plot, though, it has major implications. Once the rest of the vampires figure out that the Tremere can be fed upon with no danger of being bound to the vessel, everyone with Methuselah's Thirst will declare open season on the warlocks.

                      The new weakness almost implies there's an ancient blood-god (known as the black shepherd, perhaps?) who needs a vast herd to sate his hunger when he awakens, and engineered the change in the Tremere to make the clan an all you can eat buffet...

                      Ah, I hadn't considered that. So instead of the Tremere diablerizing everybody else, they're at risk of everybody else diablerizing the Tremere?

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                      • #26
                        Nyrufa

                        Yep, it's not enough of a clan weakness, of course, to stand on its own, though. Adding in their difficulty in bonding others, and it comes close.

                        Over the years I have tinkered with some alternate Tremere flaws. I'll list a few here. Maybe they'll help.

                        These are in "natural language", not the semi-legalese necessary for a mechanical weakness, but you'll get the gist.

                        Power Throttle: Tremere can only spend xp on disciplines with the express permission of a superior in the official hierarchy. They may never use a discipline power with a level higher than their Clan Prestige. Yes, this means outcasts have no access to their disciplines. The Sabbat has managed to form a separate hierarchy of their own.

                        Cultic Bonds: When Tremere bond another person, the bond is not to the individual but to the clan as a whole. In addition, Tremere are permanently bound with a single taste of blood, so they are all bound to the clan from the embrace. This sounds a bit extreme, but as members of the clan their domitors are also their thralls, and vice versa.

                        Superstitious Bans: All Tremere have a substance or set of conditions which will trigger rotschreck in them. Common choices: garlic, silver, crosses, the sound of church bells, the ocean, entering a home uninvited, etc.

                        Ritual Addiction: Due to their stolen vampiric heritage, Tremere have to work extra hard to use disciplines. They must spend an hour each evening performing complex rituals (an Intelligence+Occult roll, diff of their highest discipline level), or lose access to all disciplines for the remainder of the night. In a group, Tremere reduce their difficulty by 1 for each other Tremere participating, minimum diff 3.

                        Isolophobia: Tremere only regain their free nightly willpower when in the company of at least two other Tremere with whom they are on good terms, such as in a chantry.

                        Isolophobia 2: Tremere suffer from the same weakness as the Tzimisce, except their soil type is "any chantry".

                        Peculiar Outcasts: Tremere, every one of them, are... difficult to like. Each of them has a peculiarity of some sort which increases the difficulty of all pleasant social rolls by 2. The cause may be as subtle as a vague aura of dread or as obvious as being covered in weeping sores. The only creatures immune to this effect are fellow Tremere and their ghouls.(cf nWoD Nosferatu)

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                        • #27
                          If we are taking things from CoD we could import the rules for vitae adiction giving the tremere a -2 social roll to all social rolls where vitae is offered.

                          That way the tremere using the vaulderie with the council of seven or the local chantry makes a lot of sense , they need it periodically to purgue themselves from possible blood bonds periodically.

                          The weakness be seriuos becuase it imposes a penalty they cannot avoid even with the vaulderie + upon a full blood bond it is posible that they end up as traitors of the chantry not to mention that other clans find a clan who is obsessed with vitae creppy enought to make them tremble.


                          Hunger pool

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                            If we are taking things from CoD we could import the rules for vitae adiction giving the tremere a -2 social roll to all social rolls where vitae is offered.

                            That way the tremere using the vaulderie with the council of seven or the local chantry makes a lot of sense , they need it periodically to purgue themselves from possible blood bonds periodically.

                            The weakness be seriuos becuase it imposes a penalty they cannot avoid even with the vaulderie + upon a full blood bond it is posible that they end up as traitors of the chantry not to mention that other clans find a clan who is obsessed with vitae creppy enought to make them tremble.
                            Camarilla Tremere don't participate in the Vaulderie. In fact it's implied (If not explicitly stated) that the sigil that appears on Tremere's Forehead making them visible to other Tremere is triggered by participating in a Vaulderie.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                              Camarilla Tremere don't participate in the Vaulderie. In fact it's implied (If not explicitly stated) that the sigil that appears on Tremere's Forehead making them visible to other Tremere is triggered by participating in a Vaulderie.
                              Aware of that , just part of the tweak becuase it makes them feel more like a cult like conspiracy and I like that


                              Hunger pool

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