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What is Vampire's developer's problem with Zeus/Jupiter?

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  • What is Vampire's developer's problem with Zeus/Jupiter?

    I mean really, have you guys ever seen a lightning strike in person? It's absolutely no trivial thing to behold! How comes calling lightning from the sky being so weak in vampire? Basically in every iteration, from Rego Tempestas of the Tremere to the koldunic Way of Wind. 10 dices of LETHAL damage? Really? Any group of fucking fledgling power gamer brujah punk shit is going to EASILY cause more damage than that with any shitty melee weapon. It makes no sense at all and it's an insult to Jupiter! At least in werewolf you have lightning causing ag damage and examples like clap of thunder stunning people. Lightning should not only cause damage, but also stun people. Omg you can feel a lightning strike from many kilometers and when it strikes close to you it's like God is shouting at you as every nerve in your body reacts in fear to that!

  • #2
    Do you guys house rule it as well or do you think it's acceptable?

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    • #3
      Considering that humans who are struck by lightning are often able to survive with hospital care, I'd say 10 lethal is pretty damn realistic. If you're unlucky it'll kill you. If you're lucky you'll just be injured.

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      • #4
        Well, some lucky humans survived being headshot, plane crashing and Hiroshima and Nagasaki incidents. But that doesn't change the fact that those things are really deadly. My problem is not with the possibility of survival as I'm not saying a lightning strike should be like an unsurvivable nuke, but rather that the damage potential is perhaps too low and Vampire is the only game in the WoD where lightning strike is considered lethal damage and not aggravated. It's not 10 damage, bur 10 dice of damage.

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        • #5
          I wouldn't let mundane armor soak it.. ITs easy to get armor that handles a Brujah with a sword. As for whether it should be lethal vs agg.. I think Agg is too plentiful already and prefer to scale it back to just banes.

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          • #6
            Well, some lucky humans survived being headshot, plane crashing and Hiroshima and Nagasaki incidents...

            ...It's not 10 damage, bur 10 dice of damage.

            Yep, exactly. Sometimes the dice roll in your favor. Statistically the dice will allow you to survive, which lines up with what happens in real life. The majority of people actually live.

            Vampires are dead and dead bodies aren't exactly good conductors of electricity. There's no reason it should be aggravated damage. Nerve damage and the like isn't going to bother them like it would a living person.

            You could maybe house rule it to deal aggravated damage on a botched soak roll if it bothers you that much.

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            • #7
              A full on real lightning bolt from the heavens (1.21 gigawatts!) doesn't necessarily do as 'little' damage as the bolts a Tremere is throwing around with Weather Thaum 5, just as a fire can get a heck of a lot hotter than Lure of Flames 5. The Thaum (or Koldunic Sorcery) 'lightning bolts' are balanced to be used by Tremere (or Tzimisce), who don't even need to be much past Neonate levels to be chucking those around. To my mind, they compare to natural lightning as does touching an electric fence to being hit by a downed power line. One is unpleasant, the other much more deadly...

              Just as claws come in different sizes, and bullets come in different sizes, I'd assume that lightning bolts do too, and that Jupiter is not limited to what a Thaumaturge can eke out.



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              • #8
                Originally posted by PazuzuAxelf View Post


                Yep, exactly. Sometimes the dice roll in your favor. Statistically the dice will allow you to survive, which lines up with what happens in real life. The majority of people actually live.

                Vampires are dead and dead bodies aren't exactly good conductors of electricity. There's no reason it should be aggravated damage. Nerve damage and the like isn't going to bother them like it would a living person.

                You could maybe house rule it to deal aggravated damage on a botched soak roll if it bothers you that much.

                It's a level 5 power it shouldn't be so shitty. Lightning strikes in werewolves and changeling is considered aggravated and as such would cause aggravated to a vampire if used against him. Besides all my irony in my post, the real problem doesn't really have anything to do with Jupiter or Zeus, but rather that the power is too weak and is the only version of a power to evoke the natural phenomena that causes lethal damage. The problem is balance (not such a rare occurance in WoD though).

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by PazuzuAxelf View Post


                  Yep, exactly. Sometimes the dice roll in your favor. Statistically the dice will allow you to survive, which lines up with what happens in real life. The majority of people actually live.

                  Vampires are dead and dead bodies aren't exactly good conductors of electricity. There's no reason it should be aggravated damage. Nerve damage and the like isn't going to bother them like it would a living person.

                  You could maybe house rule it to deal aggravated damage on a botched soak roll if it bothers you that much.

                  It's already aggravated on a botched soak in the oficial version lol.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
                    I mean really, have you guys ever seen a lightning strike in person? It's absolutely no trivial thing to behold! How comes calling lightning from the sky being so weak in vampire?

                    Wasn't there a guy in real life who's survived no less than 6 lightning strikes over the course of his life time?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                      Wasn't there a guy in real life who's survived no less than 6 lightning strikes over the course of his life time?

                      Well, there's also a story about a guy who survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki...lol

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post


                        Well, there's also a story about a guy who survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki...lol

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                        • #13
                          Blasphemy!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
                            It's a level 5 power it shouldn't be so shitty. Lightning strikes in werewolves and changeling is considered aggravated and as such would cause aggravated to a vampire if used against him. Besides all my irony in my post, the real problem doesn't really have anything to do with Jupiter or Zeus, but rather that the power is too weak and is the only version of a power to evoke the natural phenomena that causes lethal damage. The problem is balance (not such a rare occurance in WoD though).
                            As you concede, it's about balance; other powers that do Agg generally do a lot less dice of damage, even at level 5 - Lure of Flames does 3 (Dif 9 to soak)

                            Also, Agg for Vampires is Generally about their mythological weaknesses; Fire, sunlight, and other supernatural creatures (Claws and Fangs) so it doesn't make sense for them to have it as Agg damage.
                            For werewolves, a lightning strike is due to a pissed off spirit or mage; and while it might put them down for a few seconds, the rest of the pack will probably deal with the threat. Werewolves also have a lot of Armour gifts, forms that increase their stamina, and the ability to soak Agg without extra powers.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                              As you concede, it's about balance; other powers that do Agg generally do a lot less dice of damage, even at level 5 - Lure of Flames does 3 (Dif 9 to soak)

                              Also, Agg for Vampires is Generally about their mythological weaknesses; Fire, sunlight, and other supernatural creatures (Claws and Fangs) so it doesn't make sense for them to have it as Agg damage.
                              For werewolves, a lightning strike is due to a pissed off spirit or mage; and while it might put them down for a few seconds, the rest of the pack will probably deal with the threat. Werewolves also have a lot of Armour gifts, forms that increase their stamina, and the ability to soak Agg without extra powers.
                              It's about balance. Or rather imbalance or rather powers that need to make sense. The fact that Call Lightning causes lethal damage is only about poor balance in Vampire because changelings and werewolves summon lightning that causes aggravated damage, even sorcerers do lol. Vampires also have powers that give armour, stamina (besides blood) und so weiter. By the way I know Werewolf AND Mage very well, but that is basically not the very heart of the matter here...
                              The thing is a rather weak level 5 power is what concern me here. With Way of Fire level 2 I can cause a good amount of aggravated fire damage that would most likely put Call Lightning to shame (and btw fire also ignores armour). Lure of Flames cause 3 PER TURN with a dificult 9 to soak plus causing Rötschreck in a large area and can be used by a very safe distance as well. So it's not a really fair comparrison. Physical damage in vampire also comes in a significant higher amount and is much more reliable as potence and celerity is one if the most broken combination in The WoD.

                              How can one convince one player that it's worth to have one of the mythical powers associated with vampirism if the said player cannot even begin to compete with the others? Funny enough even Serpentis has a power to call lightning that also does aggravated damage, but is most of the times beyond players' reach. To have control over the weather should be more atractive to players and that is one of the main points here.

                              So my argument stands, it's a very weak power and thus needs to be fixed. I'm amazed at how some people find it so difficult to think outside the box, but rather preffer to agree with anything that is written in the official books even when it's clear it's not right...
                              Last edited by Herr Meister; 05-06-2019, 03:37 AM.

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