Removing Multiple Actions from Combat [ST Feedback]

[Morningkill]

Hello folks! I am currently working on putting together an Dark Ages Vampire 20th edition game, and I am considering a change to streamline combat, since I have a large group of players. I would like to remove Multiple Actions and MAP from Combat, making Celerity the only way, barring any discipline powers that I'm blanking on at the moment, to take additional actions in combat. Would this significantly break/limit/be a detriment to other aspects of the game or other abilities?

[Herr Meister]

Hello folks! I am currently working on putting together an Dark Ages Vampire 20th edition game, and I am considering a change to streamline combat, since I have a large group of players. I would like to remove Multiple Actions and MAP from Combat, making Celerity the only way, barring any discipline powers that I'm blanking on at the moment, to take additional actions in combat. Would this significantly break/limit/be a detriment to other aspects of the game or other abilities?

I think it's basically one of the best things you can do to make combat smoother in WoD. Checkout the discussion on the "Combat Hack" thread. There you can find many ideas as how to make combat smoother.

[Cifer]

Hello folks! I am currently working on putting together an Dark Ages Vampire 20th edition game, and I am considering a change to streamline combat, since I have a large group of players. I would like to remove Multiple Actions and MAP from Combat, making Celerity the only way, barring any discipline powers that I'm blanking on at the moment, to take additional actions in combat. Would this significantly break/limit/be a detriment to other aspects of the game or other abilities?

Well, it obviously makes the most powerful discipline of the game, Celerity, even more overpowered than it already is.

[Morningkill]

I think it's basically one of the best things you can do to make combat smoother in WoD. Checkout the discussion on the "Combat Hack" thread. There you can find many ideas as how to make combat smoother.

I will make sure to check that thread out, thank you for the advice! I hadn't yet looked at it.

Well, it obviously makes the most powerful discipline of the game, Celerity, even more overpowered than it already is.

I can definitely see that. I've tried to houserule Celerity a bit as well to try and tone it down, taking a page out of Dark Ages revised edition where each Celerity action costs 1 BP. While it presents an additional resource management perspective to it, it may just not be enough with no other avenues for extra actions.


Thank you both for your feedback!

[Illithid]

Core DA V20 rules specify - P332

If you wish to take multiple actions in a turn, you must decide before taking your first action. The first action is taken at +1 difficulty, and at -1 dice. Each additional action receives a cumulative +1 difficulty, and -1 dice. You cannot take an action as part of a multiple action if the difficulty would be increased to 10 or higher. Additionally, only one action per turn may be an attack action.

without celerity...

V20 Dark ages does limit the number of extra actions to half your celerity instead of full.

There is also the Hail of Arrows Maneuver on p348 that does allow multiple attacks

"This breaks the normal prohibition against multiple attacks in a turn. An archer may launch as many arrows as she has Archery dots using the multiple action rules."

this functionally limits characters to a total of 3 attacks with the maneuver (First at difficulty 7 and losing a dice, second at dif 8 and losing 2 dice, third at dif 9 and losing 3 dice, then difficulty 10 attacks aren't allowed to be made) But does synergize with celerity to get negate the difficulty increase and allow more arrows being shot off.

[PazuzuAxelf]

I keep the multi actions rules but change Celerity to grant auto successes. Fewer actions taken overall, but those with Celerity rarely miss.

[Illithid]

If players can split but get celerity as autos, then what stops them splitting to the max relying on the celerity to guarantee a hit. Even with one Celerity, one success means you hit if they didn't have a defensive action.

[adambeyoncelowe]

It depends how far you want to go. You could ditch multiple actions altogether and let Celerity grant auto successes. Or you could roll once, with Celerity adding to the dice pool, and then just apply the results equally to several targets (a number equal to your Celerity).

[PazuzuAxelf]

If players can split but get celerity as autos, then what stops them splitting to the max relying on the celerity to guarantee a hit. Even with one Celerity, one success means you hit if they didn't have a defensive action.

Multi-actions are taken at a cumulative -1 dice and +1 difficulty starting with the first action. You only get 1 attack per round, so additional actions will end up being things like drawing a weapon (yes that's an action, Dexterity + Melee diff 4), or a block or dodge, or reloading a crossbow (Dexterity + Archery diff 4). Sometimes it's been a check to climb or to throw something. Since Celerity was the only way to gain additional attacks in a round in DAV20, you're never going to end up in a situation where a player is doing what you're describing. At best they'll get both a guaranteed dodge and melee attack and there's nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned. If a mortal has a tough time striking and dodging the blows of a speedy kindred that just fits thematically.


If they made a combat character at the start who has like 8 dice in their attacking and dodging pools, and have Celerity and enough generation to use it more than once in a round, they might be rolling 7 dice on an attack (+1 difficulty) and 6 dice on a dodge (+2 difficulty) with maybe 2 auto successes on each. That's not unreasonable and is about the best a starting character will be doing. The only real limitation ends up being blood pool and blood per turn. Driving yourself to hunger frenzy every time you get in a fight is a dangerous way to live. Good luck to that character's long term survival!

[Illithid]

Ok, I made the assumption you were using non Dark Ages...

So, you use Dark ages V20, but allow spending blood(?) to turn celerity into auto instead of dex dice? [* 1 blood per turn or per dice pool?]
You could still have people use the Hail of Arrows technique, but archery was never the threat that melee was due to potence...

[PazuzuAxelf]

Oh, no, the OP was about Dark Ages V20. I would have specifically mentioned if this were not the case.

I let it work exactly like Potence and Fortitude do in that system: turn your bonus dice into auto-successes with a single blood point.

[Illithid]

Oh, no, the OP was about Dark Ages V20. I would have specifically mentioned if this were not the case.
I let it work exactly like Potence and Fortitude do in that system: turn your bonus dice into auto-successes with a single blood point.

My Assumption, not your fault whatsover.
The system is actually slightly different for Potence and Fortitude

Potence - p234

Spend one blood point reflexively to turn those dice into automatic successes for the turn.

Fortitude - p221

Once per turn, she may spend a blood point to automatically soak her Fortitude in damage, instead of adding it to her Stamina. This can be used to soak aggravated damage as well, but not damage from fire or sunlight.