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Don't you guys think Thomas Gerhieren is too cute to be a Gangrel?

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  • Don't you guys think Thomas Gerhieren is too cute to be a Gangrel?

    I mean in his description it doesn't even mention any bestial feature. He looks like a "cute" boy with no bestial feature and with Appearance 4!? And his story mention that he entered frenzy, so I find it VERY strange. What do you guys think?

  • #2
    Do you guys think it should be allowed? Beautiful Gangrel with apparently no bestial feature?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
      Do you guys think it should be allowed? Beautiful Gangrel with apparently no bestial feature?
      Bestial feature are not permanent,
      And of course gangrel can be cute, as any clan, exept those who are hideous by their clan curse

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      • #4
        Originally posted by LastCourier View Post

        Bestial feature are not permanent,
        And of course gangrel can be cute, as any clan, exept those who are hideous by their clan curse

        Oh I see, now reading I found out that in V20 they changed the Gangrel's weakness. NOW it's temporary, but it used to be permanent! OMG! Now my players can make "cute" little bestial cainites with WW's blessing!

        Still, Thomas Gerhieren is from Milwaukee by night and this book is very old and doesn't use V20, so he should have had at VERY LEAST one bestial feature and not look like a "high school musical" sophomore top model! For Caine's sake!
        Last edited by Herr Meister; 05-11-2019, 08:21 PM.

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        • #5
          Well, i kinda like the idea of cute gangrel, while its far from your typical loner gangrel, its feat the theme of a clan, gangrel is survivers first, known for their adaptability, so if being cute is best way to survive, so be it
          Plus some predators use their flashy and colorful appearance, so a cute gangrel with some presence/animalism combo discipline, that evokes primal urge in people around him is cool idea to me

          But i dont know what in Milwaukee by Night, if it just your typical gangrel whos is also cute for no reason, yeah its lame

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          • #6
            Originally posted by LastCourier View Post
            Well, i kinda like the idea of cute gangrel, while its far from your typical loner gangrel, its feat the theme of a clan, gangrel is survivers first, known for their adaptability, so if being cute is best way to survive, so be it
            Plus some predators use their flashy and colorful appearance, so a cute gangrel with some presence/animalism combo discipline, that evokes primal urge in people around him is cool idea to me

            But i dont know what in Milwaukee by Night, if it just your typical gangrel whos is also cute for no reason, yeah its lame

            Basically he is the typical Gangrel, although it's stated that he uses his appearence to get laid with different rich girls and use their houses as temporary haven. The guy is basically a Chuck Norris! He single-handled killed a werewolf and fought with others of the pack before getting help from an elder Gangrel and this in the night of his embrace! Now I'm reading that some years later he also maneged to destroy the anathema Angelo! So he's a great hunter and able combatant and a high school womanizer in his spare time. Now he's the scourge of Milwaukee! OMG all of this with less than 40 years as a cainite! For Caine's sake! I want to be that boy! ROFL!

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            • #7
              1st edition was occasionally odd. And werewolves hadn't been fully fleshed out by that point, so killing a lupine wasn't quite as epic a feat as it would later be perceived as.

              As for his Appearance of 4, the 1st edition clan weakness was that every 3 animalistic trait gained via Frenzy caused the loss of one dot from a Social attribute, not necessarily Appearance. (2nd ed changed this to every 5, which Revised stuck with; IIRC, the revised clanbook also clarified that said traits didn't have to be physical, but could also include behavior changes and compulsions as well.)


              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                1st edition was occasionally odd. And werewolves hadn't been fully fleshed out by that point, so killing a lupine wasn't quite as epic a feat as it would later be perceived as.

                As for his Appearance of 4, the 1st edition clan weakness was that every 3 animalistic trait gained via Frenzy caused the loss of one dot from a Social attribute, not necessarily Appearance. (2nd ed changed this to every 5, which Revised stuck with; IIRC, the revised clanbook also clarified that said traits didn't have to be physical, but could also include behavior changes and compulsions as well.)

                Thing is, Milwaukee by night isn't from the first edition, so the guy is supposed to be quite impressive lol

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post


                  Thing is, Milwaukee by night isn't from the first edition, so the guy is supposed to be quite impressive lol
                  No, its release predates that of 2nd edition (and of Werewolf 1st ed, which is why its lupines are the way they are). It was the seventh sourcebook released, between Alien Hunger and A World of Darkness. There is a list in the back of the 2nd ed corebook.


                  What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                  Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

                    No, its release predates that of 2nd edition (and of Werewolf 1st ed, which is why its lupines are the way they are). It was the seventh sourcebook released, between Alien Hunger and A World of Darkness. There is a list in the back of the 2nd ed corebook.

                    Well, from what I remember Werewolf is from 1991 and Milwaukee by night is from 1992. So it didn't come before werewolf, and in any case it's irrelevant as Thomas Gehrieren story wasn't touched and he was even able to land the final blow against Angelo an Anathema form the Red list later, meaning that his story was only enhanced in later editions. Also Angelo by himself was arguably more powerful than most werewolves (but at lest Gehrieren wasn't alone against him lol). So the supposed "werewolves became more powerful theory" is of no relevance to the lore and much less to the topic of this post.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LastCourier View Post

                      Bestial feature are not permanent,

                      I would like some clarification on that, honestly. Seems every time I try reading about the curse, the duration of how long the bestial features lasts tends to change. Some say it's temporary, others say they can become permanent. Some say that you receive a permanent change after accruing 5 temporary ones. And the most recent one I came across stated that whether or not the changes linger depends on how low your Humanity is.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                        I would like some clarification on that, honestly. Seems every time I try reading about the curse, the duration of how long the bestial features lasts tends to change. Some say it's temporary, others say they can become permanent. Some say that you receive a permanent change after accruing 5 temporary ones. And the most recent one I came across stated that whether or not the changes linger depends on how low your Humanity is.
                        It depends on which book you're talking about.

                        First edition - permanent animal feature after each frenzy, one Social Trait lowered for each three features

                        Second/Revised edition, also Dark Ages - permanent animal feature after each frenzy, one Social Attribute lowered for each five features

                        V20 - Temporary animal feature after each frenzy, duration unspecified, may sometimes become permanent in unspecified circumstances, may reduce Social Attributes or humanity

                        DA20 - Temporary animal feature imposing a +1 penalty on a dice pool which lasts until you accept an automatic failure in that pool

                        V5 - Gain a number of animal characteristics equal to Bane severity after each frenzy. These last for one more night after the night it happens. Each animal feature reduces one Attribute by one point

                        Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
                        I mean in his description it doesn't even mention any bestial feature. He looks like a "cute" boy with no bestial feature and with Appearance 4!? And his story mention that he entered frenzy, so I find it VERY strange. What do you guys think?
                        I think that in the first edition rule set - which, to be fair, was what Milwaukee by Night was published for - then yes, the concept wouldn't work. He is, in V5-speak, a Siren, and that feeding strategy wouldn't work as he gradually turned into the wolfman. From V20 onward, it would work perfectly well. Any loss of looks would be temporary, and he could easily avoid contact with his potential vessels until he was back to normal.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JezMiller View Post

                          It depends on which book you're talking about.

                          First edition - permanent animal feature after each frenzy, one Social Trait lowered for each three features

                          Second/Revised edition, also Dark Ages - permanent animal feature after each frenzy, one Social Attribute lowered for each five features

                          V20 - Temporary animal feature after each frenzy, duration unspecified, may sometimes become permanent in unspecified circumstances, may reduce Social Attributes or humanity

                          DA20 - Temporary animal feature imposing a +1 penalty on a dice pool which lasts until you accept an automatic failure in that pool

                          V5 - Gain a number of animal characteristics equal to Bane severity after each frenzy. These last for one more night after the night it happens. Each animal feature reduces one Attribute by one point
                          Thanks for the clarification. I rather prefer the more permanent change options. Some awesome ideas for Gangrel elders come to mind.

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                          • #14
                            As NPCs, I think it's great to have the features, but for PCs, it turns their weakness into the most debilitating in a long term chronicle.

                            Nosferatu ONLY get appearance Zero (And, due to character creation, lose no points invested in that attribute) but a Gangrel is losing roughly a freebie point off their character sheet for each frenzy, too easily a Gangrel would get down to straight Zeros in all their socials....

                            *The Weakness only usually gets acted upon when a character frenzies in a session, but consider the likelihood of a frenzy in Downtimes for the potential full extent of the applied mechanic.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                              As NPCs, I think it's great to have the features, but for PCs, it turns their weakness into the most debilitating in a long term chronicle.

                              Nosferatu ONLY get appearance Zero (And, due to character creation, lose no points invested in that attribute) but a Gangrel is losing roughly a freebie point off their character sheet for each frenzy, too easily a Gangrel would get down to straight Zeros in all their socials....

                              *The Weakness only usually gets acted upon when a character frenzies in a session, but consider the likelihood of a frenzy in Downtimes for the potential full extent of the applied mechanic.

                              Yeah, I agree that to make them lose social points this way would be too much a burden for a PC to bear, but at the same time if they never get such things their curse becomes too soft, don't you think? I think the V20 version is better for players in any case (and V5 I completelly ignore anyway...), but the gangrel NPC loses some of "its charms" with many bestial features that make them thematically interesting as it reflects well their curse and so on.

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