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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cifer View Post
    It's about as positive a view point as serial killers tend to have. "I'm just saving them from an eternity in an uncaring universe" - yeah, well, maybe some people would like to have that eternity. The shadowlands of Wraith are not the afterlife of the majority of people. Noone knows where people go when they don't become wraiths in the first place, but it's clear they don't when their souls are devoured.

    Except the difference between Diablerie and serial killers is that the former is saving the vampire from eternal torment in the fires of Hell, which I am heavily inclined to believe exists within this cosmology, since Masquerade outright states it's going for a judeo christian origin story. Ceasing to exist is infinitely more preferable to being endlessly tortured for all time. Anybody who would argue to the contrary are the ones who should be rolling for Humanity checks, not the other way around.

    And like I said, diablerie maintains and preserves the knowledge and power that the subject had accumulated over the course of their existence, instead of letting it all go to waste.

    So the way I see it, Diablerie is not only merciful, but has practical applications, as well.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Nyrufa
      Ceasing to exist is infinitely more preferable to being endlessly tortured for all time.
      1)
      Diablere doesn't make you cease to exist. We know this much because the victim can struggle for control with the diablerist after dying. And because, even if the diablerist wins, fragments of the personality of the victim can emerge from time to time.

      To say that you get to blissfully cease to exist all at once after you get murdered it's an assumption you're making. We simply don't know if being slowly assimilated within the consciousness of someone else it's not painfull or horrible in other ways, as your whole identity get's digested by the other vampire over the years.

      2)

      More so, you don't know if a vampire it's incapable of reaching heaven or purgatory. You can only make an educated guess based on your beliefs. And if your beliefs are Christian, then you should believe that salvation it's always possible (and there's Golconda).

      If damanation was certain to vampires (if vampires were certain that their soul it's forever damned, and were counting on dying and going to hel), making deals with demons wouldn't have such a bad rep. After all, if you were going there anyway you may as well get to know your future boss...But that's not the case: Call it hypocrisy if you want, but most Christian vampires seem to think they have a chance in spite of their crimes.

      So, in most cases, you simply don't know that by eating someone alive and slowly digesting their soul you're saving them from an eternity of torment. More so, you could be enacting the tortures of Hell yourself in the hope that if you do it won't be eternal...and that's crazy.

      If you know the vampire was a diabolist, and he asks for it as a way to break a deal...perhaps...or perhaps there's no right choice...and there could be other reasons to lose Humanity, you really don't want to know where that soul has been.

      3) If you believe in crossover cosmology, then it's even less certain:
      *Demon clarifies that there's no humans in Hell
      *Wraith clarifies that Hell was made as a construct of belief within the Underworld, and most humans don't go to the Underworld (so they don't go there either)
      *Mummy makes things even more complicated by adding *more* souls that go to different places

      4) Murdering someone to save him from Hell it's crazytalk. Seriously, it's mind-blowing madness of the evil kind, and shouldn't even be considered.

      All in all, it soulds like a good idea for a bizarre sect of vampires. The 7 Salubri do that. Probably any vampire that wants to "save people from hell" regularly has to follow a Road, both because rules and because it IS a very crazy idea.
      Last edited by Aleph; 05-13-2019, 02:22 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Aleph View Post

        More so, you don't know if a vampire it's incapable of reaching heaven or purgatory. You can only make an educated guess based on your beliefs. And if your beliefs are Christian, then you should believe that salvation it's always possible (and there's Golconda).


        Golconda is so rare, as to be considered damn near mythical in kindred society. Have you ever met a vampire who achieved it?

        Most likely not. You probably heard about it from a friend, who heard about it from their cousin, who heard about it from their friend's cousin.

        As for crossover cosmology; what about the Kindred of the East, in which Hell is very much real? Or (since Kuei Jin are only made from Asian stock) are you trying to tell me that only Asian people get sent to Hell?

        For the sake of the argument, I'll agree that even WoD isn't strictly clear on what happens. It fails (or outright refuses) to provide a concrete explanation of what happens, and basically leaves it up to the player's imagination. To me, that adds further fuel to the fires of paranoia and dread that comes with Final Death.

        "Oh, there's a chance that you might be forgiven for your sins, but we don't actually know for sure, because nobody (including Wraiths) know where we go when we die."

        Is Diablerie a more preferable alternative to the WoD's true afterlife? I honestly don't know. It could be better, or worse than existence as a kindred. But until I know for sure, I really, really don't want to gamble the fate of my eternal soul on the vague possibility of hope.


        And sure, most vampires who feel this way would probably be on some kind of Path of Enlightenment. I understand that most kindred would have a problem with the idea that they're irrevocably damned. But that doesn't change the fact that Diablerie makes more sense to me, than cutting the vampire's head off and hoping that things work out well for them.

        We as players have access to the rule books. We as players know things about the world that those living within it do not. We as characters, however, are left fumbling around in the dark for answers that we might never find.
        Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-13-2019, 06:17 PM.

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        • #34
          The conversation of the afterlife in vampire is just too interesting so I will give my two cents:Personally what i make is that vampires who have low humanity or are wights become spectres instead of wraiths upon death as the beast consumes their souls wicht raises a lot of questions.

          Do all humans have a beast? , Does the embrace just kickstarts it by giving it fuel? , Maybe Vampirism is just a "Dark" Awakening or a form of descension as instead of becoming more enlightened like mages do the vampire just loses control and wins power by becoming more "inhuman".


          Hunger pool

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
            The conversation of the afterlife in vampire is just too interesting so I will give my two cents:Personally what i make is that vampires who have low humanity or are wights become spectres instead of wraiths upon death as the beast consumes their souls wicht raises a lot of questions.

            Do all humans have a beast? , Does the embrace just kickstarts it by giving it fuel? , Maybe Vampirism is just a "Dark" Awakening or a form of descension as instead of becoming more enlightened like mages do the vampire just loses control and wins power by becoming more "inhuman".

            A few years back, I had a theory that what vampires call The Beast was actually the darker aspects of Humanity being amplified by the curse of Caine. It wasn't a monster that committed the first murder, it was a human, and they did so because they were jealous that their brother got more recognition than they did. Just looking at the atrocities humanity as a species has committed throughout the ages, they really don't have any ground to stand on when it comes to speeches about morality.

            This could explain why vampires who embrace their existence as a monster, and follow one of the alternate Paths are able to commit heinous acts, without succumbing to their Beast. It's because they've learned to recognize what they truly are, and accepted it as a part of their new existence.

            Those who follow the Path of Humanity are living in denial, and try to suppress their natural urges, until they inevitably reach a boiling point.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
              Except the difference between Diablerie and serial killers is that the former is saving the vampire from eternal torment in the fires of Hell, which I am heavily inclined to believe exists within this cosmology, since Masquerade outright states it's going for a judeo christian origin story. Ceasing to exist is infinitely more preferable to being endlessly tortured for all time. Anybody who would argue to the contrary are the ones who should be rolling for Humanity checks, not the other way around.
              And like I said, diablerie maintains and preserves the knowledge and power that the subject had accumulated over the course of their existence, instead of letting it all go to waste.
              So the way I see it, Diablerie is not only merciful, but has practical applications, as well.
              Ok, there are some underlying assumptions.
              Most vampires don't assume they are going to Hell after undeath. They're usually afraid that it might be the case, but Vampire Cosmology doesn't make it explicit.
              (Though, Road of Night does make that assumption)
              Also, even if they went to Hell, Abrahamic religions assume (*For the most part) that you can be redeemed. By destroying a soul, you stop their ability to be redeemed.
              Diablerie never gives all the knowledge and power that the victim had either.

              In general, It'd be a great in-game discussion to have, but there are too many sources that disagree with you.
              It's wrong because the Elders (Fearful that you'll try it) say that it's wrong.
              It's wrong because the Rules say it is - Black stains in Aura, describing it as a "Sin" preceptable with Thaumaturgy
              Dark Ages p 356 -
              Even those without special perceptions often sense a taint about the diablerist. For one month per Generation removed from the victim, a diablerist leaves more sensitive Cainites unsettled. The vampire in question may not actually know what the diablerist did, but they’ll feel uncomfortable around him just the same.
              And the underlying mechanics of the Morality system say it's wrong
              "Lastly, many Roads prohibit murder. If murder is a sin for the vampire, the Road loss is automatic, not rolled"

              V20 Modern - P295
              Diablerie is worse than murder: The Amaranth literally absorbs the victim’s soul, destroying any chance of the victim finding peace in the afterlife. Such a heinous crime strips a minimum of one Humanity dot from the character’s Humanity rating. Additionally, for extremely vicious attacks, the Storyteller might require a Conscience roll (difficulty 8). Failure means the loss of an additional Humanity point, while a botch could well mean the loss of even more.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                Ok, there are some underlying assumptions.
                Most vampires don't assume they are going to Hell after undeath. They're usually afraid that it might be the case, but Vampire Cosmology doesn't make it explicit.
                (Though, Road of Night does make that assumption)
                Also, even if they went to Hell, Abrahamic religions assume (*For the most part) that you can be redeemed. By destroying a soul, you stop their ability to be redeemed.
                Diablerie never gives all the knowledge and power that the victim had either.
                In all cases that I'm aware of, the theory about being redeemed only applies to those who repent during their actual life time. Once they're dead, it's too late to go back.

                "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." as the infamous line goes.

                And this may be due to having been raised catholic, but when I hear the phrase "damned" I instinctively translated as "going straight to Hell."

                If the kindred don't consider themselves inherently bound for the pits of torment, then they should really stop referring to themselves as such.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                  In all cases that I'm aware of, the theory about being redeemed only applies to those who repent during their actual life time. Once they're dead, it's too late to go back.

                  "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." as the infamous line goes.

                  And this may be due to having been raised catholic, but when I hear the phrase "damned" I instinctively translated as "going straight to Hell."

                  If the kindred don't consider themselves inherently bound for the pits of torment, then they should really stop referring to themselves as such.
                  Though a majority of western kindred where Christian before their embrace and damned does mean going straight to hell, not all kindred call themselves damned. Just as they don't all consider themselfs Cainites. Redemtion is not the only escape from unlife that a kindred may seek and atonment for what you or your society conceders a sin is older than christianity. Couple that with the reasoning that most Vampires still believe they have a soul and I fail to see why they wouldn't think they could be saved. Granted some of them may think this but not the majority.

                  Even in the Book of Nod they list the way to salvation called "Golconda" so why wouldn't they beleive they are capable of redemtion?

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Redwulfe View Post

                    Couple that with the reasoning that most Vampires still believe they have a soul and I fail to see why they wouldn't think they could be saved. Granted some of them may think this but not the majority.

                    Even in the Book of Nod they list the way to salvation called "Golconda" so why wouldn't they beleive they are capable of redemtion?
                    Speaking of souls, I've asked around about this before, and got some very strange information regarding how the concept is handled in the CoD / WoD cosmology. Primarily the fact that your soul is, for lack of a better term, a "battery" for your aspirations in life. Apparently, it's possible for a person to swap out their soul with a different one, without having any major changes on their personality and behavior. This seems to contradict the risks that come with Diablerie, though.

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                    • #40
                      In CofD, it's a bit weird. But the thing the corebook (and the Mage book) calls the "soul" isn't the same as what you eat in Diablerie. Players who want to be specific generally call it "the Willpower organ" because it's, well, the thing that recharges your willpower. Without it, your "driving force" fades away over time and you're left as a sort of zombie. Your mind is still there, but there's no will to drive it. It's not actually clear if vampires actually have these or if their Willpower organ has been replaced by the Beast; the topic is only mentioned because certain vampiric creatures (the Strix) can tear Willpower organs out of humans to use as a long-term source of Vitae.

                      CofD ghosts are a separate thing from the Willpower organ: they're basically imprints a person's mind leaves on the world at the moment when consciousness ceases entirely. But it's possible for a person to leave more than one ghost, for example, if they get resuscitated and then die again later. This leads to some philosophical questions (when you resuscitate someone, their ghost is the one who has the continuity of consciousness, and their living body doesn't; does that make them "the real one"?) which don't get hard answers in the book. But basically, ghosts aren't "souls" in the Christian sense either.

                      Then there's the part that gets eaten in Diablerie, which according to the Lancea (prominent Christian vampire sect) is also the part that goes to Heaven or Hell if you die of natural causes. (For vampires, always Hell, because damnation and God's curse and all that.) Nobody's really sure what that part is. No supernatural power can manipulate it (apart from Diablerie which consumes it) and what happens to it when you die is entirely unknown. It's one of those things I'm pretty sure the books will never give a "canonical" answer to.

                      === === === === === === === === ===

                      In WoD, things are a lot simpler, cosmologically. To my understanding, there's only one thing that's called the "soul": it's the thing you eat in Diablerie, but also the thing that can become a ghost, and the thing that goes to the Underworld when you die, and the thing that's consumed in soulforging. This is why diablerized vampires never leave ghosts: the part of them that would become a ghost has been consumed, and it's gone for good.

                      V5 hasn't released any soul-manipulating powers yet, but in V20 for example, the Bone Path of Necromancy lets you rip someone's soul out (leaving the soul as a ghost, and their body empty) and then put a different ghost in the empty body (giving them complete control: it's not quite possession, it's a soul in a living body, same as anyone else). Empty bodies can't be Diablerized because there's nothing in there to eat. And this also provides a somewhat testable answer to the "are we eating people's immortal souls?" question: necromancers can tell you from firsthand experience that the part that they normally see fall through the Shadowlands into the Underworld, just isn't there any more after Diablerie.

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