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Could you do this with Viccissitude?

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  • Natsymir
    started a topic Could you do this with Viccissitude?

    Could you do this with Viccissitude?

    This image jumped at me on pinterest, and I was like "my god, I have to have this for a Tzimisce archbishop..."



    I realize some might think this is too much. But why, exactly? Is there any reason you couldn't do this with Viccissitude, if you were sufficiently deranged? What do you guys think?

  • Illithid
    replied
    Since most of the discussion of powers to compare to previous editions, I'll leave my comparison to the same; the difference between V5 and others is too stark, it's practically discussing two different games systems.
    If others have been discussing V5 and I assumed it wasn't, sorry. But my argument has been all pre-V5

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    Yes, you can stack disciplines up to 5 technically at character creation if the ST allows it. (In most editions, The newer Larp starts you with 2 in one and 1 in the other 2 by default before XP spend and no Freebies)

    But you still can't do everything that the mortals can do with tools. Even with a 20 year "Training process" building up disciplines, I'd bet that 20 years of military and survivalist training for a mortal would win out!

    Pre-5th edition, perhaps. But from what I understand, a level 1 dot in Potence gives you the power to tear mortals apart with your bare hands. Add an extra dot to that, and you can soar through the air like the incredible hulk, or increase your unarmed damage modifier.

    First dot of Celerity and you become fast enough to dodge bullets, take minor actions every round without penalty, or become a master acrobat.

    In the older editions, such power was usually something that only higher level masters could accomplish. But now it seems like you get such abilities right out of the gate! A 20 year training montage would probably elevate you to the level of action movie villain!

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Yes, you can stack disciplines up to 5 technically at character creation if the ST allows it. (In most editions, The newer Larp starts you with 2 in one and 1 in the other 2 by default before XP spend and no Freebies)

    But you still can't do everything that the mortals can do with tools. Even with a 20 year "Training process" building up disciplines, I'd bet that 20 years of military and survivalist training for a mortal would win out!

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post


    Sure Vampires CAN do all of that without tools, with enough time to develop all of those disciplines, but what about before that; if you have that Gangrel with Animalism 1, Fotitude 1 and Protean 1 - How are they surviving until they can get their Animalism and Protean to the required levels?
    Is it with tools, because that's totally the answer. The only other answer is that a mentor looks after them until they have the skills (so what, Ancilla to get the discipline spread?)

    You forget that most clans have some kind of training process they put their childer through, before releasing them out into the world.

    Unless you're starting the story immediately following the embrace, I think the Freebie Points are supposed to represent that your character has completed some form of proper education.

    You get 3 discipline dots to spend at character creation, and they don't have to be an even spread between all three in clan abilities. If you want to do so, you can hyper specialize all three starting dots into one discipline. And with the aid of Freebie and Advantage points, you can acquire the other disciplines you would have normally missed out on. The way that I rationalize this is that your character is some kind of childhood prodigy when it comes to wielding such a discipline, or they might have a passionate interest in studying the art.
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-21-2019, 12:51 AM.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by AzraelFirestorm View Post
    This hypothetical vampire can pull all this off as a decently built 5th Generation Old Clan Tzimisce Koldun (or Tremere), without even straying from their associated Clan Disciplines/Magic or employing any Discipline power over 5, save for Auspex. The Generation requirement itself is only there for Auspex powers to mimic a supernatural "wikipedia". The rest could be handled by the aforementioned Tzimisce (or Tremere) of standard pc Generation (8-13th). If that is what you'd call "close to Antediluvian power", then we might be seeing this game from very different perspectives.
    A 5th Gen rare bloodline with level 5 in multiple disciplines isn't possible for a PC. It is much much closer to an Antidiluvian than anything Playable without generously feeding Diablerie Fodder to the PCs by an ST.

    BUT my more important point - How much XP are you sinking in to this hypothetical Vampire to make them able to do the same things that most of humanity in the industrialized world can do?
    A couple of levels of crafts maybe; a level of drive, a level of computer. Resources 2 or more to buy what you need, and some skill that you use for your income? Even giving them Firearms 1 or 2 for using a gun to compare the hunting in the wild if needed?
    You're comparing level 4+ disciplines (With the original theoretical Vampire just able to Shift with Protean) to dots often given to modern characters to "Round them out" in the modern world. Points they may never roll, but added to the sheet for depth of their back story.

    Sure Vampires CAN do all of that without tools, with enough time to develop all of those disciplines, but what about before that; if you have that Gangrel with Animalism 1, Fotitude 1 and Protean 1 - How are they surviving until they can get their Animalism and Protean to the required levels?
    Is it with tools, because that's totally the answer. The only other answer is that a mentor looks after them until they have the skills (so what, Ancilla to get the discipline spread?)

    *If you use the Children of night (?) square root of age calculation, then with Animalism 2 to summon dinner, and Protean 4 - you'd need to be approx 36 years as a Vampire. That's a long time for a sire to carry dead, or un-dead weight around
    Last edited by Illithid; 05-20-2019, 10:47 PM.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by AzraelFirestorm View Post

    This hypothetical vampire can pull all this off as a stereotypical 5th Generation Old Clan Tzimisce Koldun (or Tremere), without even straying from their associated Clan Disciplines/Magic or employing any Discipline power over 5, save for Auspex. If that is what you'd call "close to Antediluvian power", then we might be seeing this game from very different perspectives.

    Plus, the vampire can offer a trade of services to learn out of clan Disciplines, the same way a human might offer a similar trade of currency to purchase the latest technology.

    Cifer And I stand by my previous statement that the inherent abilities of the vampire condition can compensate for any technological advancement humans have come up with. Whether or not a specific power is freely available to all kindred is irrelevant. The core of my argument is that a vampire has the potential ability to compete with technology using only the powers granted to them by the embrace.

    Not every human on the planet is trained in the use of firearms, military tactics, or astrophysics. Should we discount those advantages then, because only a select group of people have access to them?
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-20-2019, 07:06 PM.

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  • AzraelFirestorm
    replied
    Originally posted by Cifer View Post
    A hypothetical vampire close to Antediluvian power with any disciplines they wish for at their disposal could solve pretty much any problem humans need technology for. A less hypothetical and more actual vampire who can't just grab whatever disciplines they'd like won't be able to do this. Their only two options are to shy away from many challenges or to embrace technology just like the breathing rest.
    This hypothetical vampire can pull all this off as a decently built 5th Generation Old Clan Tzimisce Koldun (or Tremere), without even straying from their associated Clan Disciplines/Magic or employing any Discipline power over 5, save for Auspex. The Generation requirement itself is only there for Auspex powers to mimic a supernatural "wikipedia". The rest could be handled by the aforementioned Tzimisce (or Tremere) of standard pc Generation (8-13th). If that is what you'd call "close to Antediluvian power", then we might be seeing this game from very different perspectives.
    Last edited by AzraelFirestorm; 05-20-2019, 07:10 PM.

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  • Cifer
    replied
    AzraelFirestorm
    The baseline post was this one:
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    Whatever problems humans need technology to solve, the vampiric condition has an inherent ability to compensate for. It's nice to have access to the tools that human ingenuity can provide, but kindred don't need to rely on them. Humans, on the other hand, would be utterly powerless without such resources at their disposal.
    No mention of some kind of war, merely the thesis that "the vampiric condition has an inherent ability to compensate for" "whatever problems humans need technology to solve". So I'd say... sure. A hypothetical vampire close to Antediluvian power with any disciplines they wish for at their disposal could solve pretty much any problem humans need technology for. A less hypothetical and more actual vampire who can't just grab whatever disciplines they'd like won't be able to do this. Their only two options are to shy away from many challenges or to embrace technology just like the breathing rest.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Cifer View Post

    Assuming an intermingled population, there would be no war, obviously. Humanity loses instantly. Ten days later, it is eradicated (excepting small pockets of survivors), because that's the time vampires can subsist on one human each. Then the vampires spend a little time diablerizing each other. Then the remaining vampires fall into torpor and earth is effectively cleansed of both vampires and humans.
    Assuming the vampire doesn't go around spamming their supernatural powers every night, they only need to expend a single point of Vitae / Hunger in order to rise each night. They could very easily ration out their blood supply during the month in order to sustain a human farm. The biggest problem would come from the Sabbat and possibly the Anarchs.

    I'm not saying the Brujah's account of events is completely accurate. But if Carthage was truly as terrifying as the other clans like to claim it was, the fact that it managed to survive for as long as it did proves that an openly vampire dominated society is possible.

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  • AzraelFirestorm
    replied
    Originally posted by Cifer View Post
    Please be a little more specific. Which Auspex power gives you an effective Wikipedia? Do you intend to keep, I don't know, five hundred experts of varying subjects around to telepathically interrogate every time you wish to know something?
    Keeping anyone "around" would be completely unnecessary, specifically because Astral Projection and higher powers of far-seeing allow the user to use other Auspex (and Discipline powers, where applicable) without the need for physical proximity. Mind reading (Telepathy, Telepathic Communication, etc.), aura reading and more for hundreds of miles in every direction and all without leaving one's Haven.

    The power of Omiscience even rolls Spirit's Touch into this, enabling long distance psychometry on whatever object or person the user can "reach". Add to that the Combo Discipline power of Spectral Puppeteer, which allows you to use Dominate's Possession from afar, and that enables the high level Auspex user to employ Pluck The Secret at a distance to learn anything they want, in detail, from an expert. It's not one power that makes a Discipline truly powerful. It's the Discipline's varied powers being used to their full potential.

    Escape to a True Friend brings you to a single person in the world, one that you in fact cannot choose. It seems highly unlikely that "the person whose trust and friendship she most values" happens to be in exactly the place you wish to go to.
    Hypothetically, one's True Friend could travel many places...

    So we're talking about the "innate powers of the vampiric condition" for vampires of no worse than gen 7 now?
    Assuming this war scenario, most definitely. That's the time when the Elders would rise. From the Baali Wars, to the War of Princes right on to the Final Nights, those of potent blood rise up.and start making moves when they hear the rumblings of war or upheaval. There's also been more than one instance where "true" Elders (6-7th) and Methuselah have been noted as seeing vampires of 8th Generation or higher as weak blooded, lesser beings in general. So, in that scenario, 6+ Discipline powers are fully in play as innate qualities of the characters who would rightly be using them.
    Last edited by AzraelFirestorm; 05-20-2019, 03:50 PM.

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  • Cifer
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    For the answer to most of those questions, I already addressed with the use of Auspex. Which allows for long distance communication in total secrecy, and which can be initiated at almost any time. Unlike phone services, which can suffer from bug tapping, signal traces, bad reception, or get shut down for routine maintenance. And sure, you can strike up a conversation with total strangers using technology, if you want to. But chances are that they aren't going to be interested in talking with you for longer than is necessary for the phrase "wrong number" to be uttered. And if by some chance you do manage to schedule a conversation ahead of time, then that would imply you have at least established some form of contact with them in the past, instead of just calling them up out of the blue and having a chat.
    I routinely talk to people in other countries in the course of my work without ever leaving my home office - I've never seen even one of them, though prior email correspondence and/or a referral by their colleagues does help matters.

    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    As for crossing the ocean, I was given to understand that (at least for the Masquerade), long distance travel was rare for vampires. Either because the foreigners are highly aggressive, or because they don't see much need to leave their established power bases. I have a hard time believing that any voyage which only takes a few hours by ship, couldn't be easily traversed by the vampire simply swimming across, or walking along the bottom. They don't need to breathe, or rest as long as the sun is down, so I imagine winning a marathon would be child's play to them. Those with Protean could transform into a sea animal to make the trip easier, while those with Celerity could vastly improve their travel speed to a level where they could probably keep pace with such vessels.
    Traveling from, say, London to New York would mean 5500km. Walking along the bottom at a very generous 4km per hour against water resistance would take 1375 hours or roughly a hundred days, assuming no appreciable loss for feeding time. Compared to eight hours for kine via plane.

    Originally posted by AzraelFirestorm View Post
    Auspex, in general. Blood Sorcery, too.
    Please be a little more specific. Which Auspex power gives you an effective Wikipedia? Do you intend to keep, I don't know, five hundred experts of varying subjects around to telepathically interrogate every time you wish to know something?

    Originally posted by AzraelFirestorm View Post
    The Path of Mercury/Praapti, or the Way of Wind 4 (Ride the Tempest). The ritual Escape To A True Friend, used properly, as well. Blood Sorcery is super useful.
    Escape to a True Friend brings you to a single person in the world, one that you in fact cannot choose. It seems highly unlikely that "the person whose trust and friendship she most values" happens to be in exactly the place you wish to go to. Ride the Tempest actually works. Of course it's part of a discipline that only a minority of members of a single clan possess, but it works.

    Originally posted by AzraelFirestorm View Post
    Auspex 7, Spirit Link.
    So we're talking about the "innate powers of the vampiric condition" for vampires of no worse than gen 7 now?

    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    Yup; sunlight and numbers. That's the only advantage the Kine have over Kindred. You put about 5 billion vampires on the planet, and then we'll see just how threatening humanity's is during an open war. Sure, feeding that many vampires in the long term is going to be a pain in the ass, but I'm sure that their numbers would be culled naturally during the war. The survivors would also get picked off by simply engaging in Kindred politics.

    As for the subject of human cattle farms, I think this might actually be easier than we're being lead to believe. There are at least 2 disciplines which can effect the mental state of the victim: Dominate and Presence. So it would not be outside the realm of possibility to say that humans couldn't be conditioned to be more servile, after they've been properly rounded up and brain washed.
    Assuming an intermingled population, there would be no war, obviously. Humanity loses instantly. Ten days later, it is eradicated (excepting small pockets of survivors), because that's the time vampires can subsist on one human each. Then the vampires spend a little time diablerizing each other. Then the remaining vampires fall into torpor and earth is effectively cleansed of both vampires and humans.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by AzraelFirestorm View Post

    Auspex, in general. Blood Sorcery, too.



    The Path of Mercury/Praapti, or the Way of Wind 4 (Ride the Tempest). The ritual Escape To A True Friend, used properly, as well. Blood Sorcery is super useful.



    Auspex 7, Spirit Link.



    Kindred > Kine, always and forever. Also, what Nyrufa said.

    Yup; sunlight and numbers. That's the only advantage the Kine have over Kindred. You put about 5 billion vampires on the planet, and then we'll see just how threatening humanity's is during an open war. Sure, feeding that many vampires in the long term is going to be a pain in the ass, but I'm sure that their numbers would be culled naturally during the war. The survivors would also get picked off by simply engaging in Kindred politics.

    As for the subject of human cattle farms, I think this might actually be easier than we're being lead to believe. There are at least 2 disciplines which can effect the mental state of the victim: Dominate and Presence. So it would not be outside the realm of possibility to say that humans couldn't be conditioned to be more servile, after they've been properly rounded up and brain washed.

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  • AzraelFirestorm
    replied
    Originally posted by Cifer View Post
    So, what is the vampiric ability to have most of humanity's knowledge at your fingertips?
    Auspex, in general. Blood Sorcery, too.

    How do you bodily cross oceans within hours?
    The Path of Mercury/Praapti, or the Way of Wind 4 (Ride the Tempest). The ritual Escape To A True Friend, used properly, as well. Blood Sorcery is super useful.

    How do you conduct a real-time conversation with five other people whom you've never met, some human, some kindred, all strewn across the planet?
    Auspex 7, Spirit Link.



    Kindred > Kine, always and forever. Also, what Nyrufa said.
    Last edited by AzraelFirestorm; 05-20-2019, 11:38 AM.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Cifer View Post
    So, what is the vampiric ability to have most of humanity's knowledge at your fingertips? How do you bodily cross oceans within hours? How do you conduct a real-time conversation with five other people whom you've never met, some human, some kindred, all strewn across the planet?
    For the answer to most of those questions, I already addressed with the use of Auspex. Which allows for long distance communication in total secrecy, and which can be initiated at almost any time. Unlike phone services, which can suffer from bug tapping, signal traces, bad reception, or get shut down for routine maintenance. And sure, you can strike up a conversation with total strangers using technology, if you want to. But chances are that they aren't going to be interested in talking with you for longer than is necessary for the phrase "wrong number" to be uttered. And if by some chance you do manage to schedule a conversation ahead of time, then that would imply you have at least established some form of contact with them in the past, instead of just calling them up out of the blue and having a chat.

    As for crossing the ocean, I was given to understand that (at least for the Masquerade), long distance travel was rare for vampires. Either because the foreigners are highly aggressive, or because they don't see much need to leave their established power bases. I have a hard time believing that any voyage which only takes a few hours by ship, couldn't be easily traversed by the vampire simply swimming across, or walking along the bottom. They don't need to breathe, or rest as long as the sun is down, so I imagine winning a marathon would be child's play to them. Those with Protean could transform into a sea animal to make the trip easier, while those with Celerity could vastly improve their travel speed to a level where they could probably keep pace with such vessels.

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