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So how did the 2nd Gen die?

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  • So how did the 2nd Gen die?

    I mean, I know the Antediluvians killed/ate them off, but... like... how?

    If there is a world of difference between the godlike 3rd generation and their childer the 4th generation, then there much be just as crazy, if not bigger, of a gap between 2 and 3. Heck, even some of the 3rd Gen that have been diablarized aren't necessarily dead (looking at you Saulot). And to top it all off, the 2nd Gen were active when the 3rd Gen killed them - they weren't slumbering torpored elders the way the 3rd Gen (generally) is.

    I know the actual answer is essentially, "because the plot says so," but that's boring. :P
    What are your thoughts?

  • #2
    Caine might have helped?

    Though it's worth remembering that the First City is described as being "crowded" with vampires... despite all but four of them (maybe) being 3rd Generation. The 13 Clan founders are the few that survived the upheaval of the flood.

    So, yeah, plot said so, but it's less boring if you consider hundreds of 3rd gen vampires in epic battles as the First City's doom loomed around them.

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    • #3
      13 on 3 and we also don't know how crazy powerful the 2nd is compared to the 3rd. Also the 2nd gen probably trusted their childer too much so they might have had the advantage of surprise. Additionally there may have been more than 13 as Heavy Arms said but I don't think it's required. On top of this part of the reason the antediluvians are so powerful is their age as well as their generation. Even low generation vampires take a long time to develop many elder disciplines. Assuming the 2nd and 3rd gen were quite young at this time I'd imagine the gap in generational power was also smaller. On top of this we don't even know that the 2nd generation was actually destroyed. In Beckett's Jyhad Diary it's suspected that the vampire they dig up out of torpor is 2nd gen. On top of all this all tales about anything pre-flood are worthy of scepticism as even in lore they're only believed by vampires who weren't even there. I don't think we ever read anything first hand from a pre-deluge methuselah let alone antediluvian about anything let alone kindred history. Sorry that this has come out as a bit of a ramble.

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      • #4
        Which one?
        Seems I heard a rumor or two that one of them there second generation vampires may still be around.

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        • #5
          For starters, the power gap between generations didn't come into play until after the 3rd gens took down the 2nd gens. The difference in power between the generations at that time was just experience, with the 2nd being around for at least 2,000 years before the 3rd.

          Secondly, it's been left vague as to whether or not the uprising resulted in the 2nd gen's final death or just removed from power.

          Third, it's been hinted that at least Enoch survived and may have recently woken up from a very long torpor.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
            For starters, the power gap between generations didn't come into play until after the 3rd gens took down the 2nd gens. The difference in power between the generations at that time was just experience, with the 2nd being around for at least 2,000 years before the 3rd.

            This.

            Also, there were only 3 members of the 2nd generation, as opposed to the 13 members of the 3rd generation. So, you know... strength in numbers.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Kael03 View Post

              Third, it's been hinted that at least Enoch survived and may have recently woken up from a very long torpor.
              What's the evidence for that?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Alucard View Post

                What's the evidence for that?
                Beckett's Jyhad Diary has an (optional) scenario where Enoch awakens and either:
                a) Has a nice conversation with Beckett
                b) Is absolutely insane and brings about Gehenna

                Also, worth pointing out that in Dark Ages V20's "Tome of Secrets" a group of vampires are sent on a quest by a mysterious benefactor who is so powerful that he can remove their need for blood while they are working for him and his blood seems to be a composite of Ventrue, Lasombra, Brujah and Cappadocian vitae which, according to the text, are presumed to be the Clans sired by Irad, suggesting that Irad may also still be extant.

                And, of course, there's always the weeping stone of the Black Hand which, supposedly, is the petrified form of Zillah.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                  This.

                  Also, there were only 3 members of the 2nd generation, as opposed to the 13 members of the 3rd generation. So, you know... strength in numbers.
                  Plus an untold number of 4th gens. It was before the uprising that Absimiliard started building the Niktuku to take down Zillah.

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                  • #10
                    "A great war was waged, the Elders against their Children, just as Uriel had said,
                    And the Children slew their parents.
                    They rose up
                    Used fire and wood
                    Swords and claws
                    To destroy those who had created them."

                    So according to The Book of Nod they were killed by fire and wood, swords and claws.


                    Light inspires illusion and interpretation. Truth can only be found in darkness.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
                      For starters, the power gap between generations didn't come into play until after the 3rd gens took down the 2nd gens. The difference in power between the generations at that time was just experience, with the 2nd being around for at least 2,000 years before the 3rd.
                      This, Generation is explicitly a curse from Caine in Noddist mythology, and the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generations were all roughly equal in potential (Caine just had a massive headstart). It's questionable whether a vampire who was descended from a post-Generation curse 2nd gen would suffer from this or if they'd effectively be at 3rd Generation levels of power no matter their generation.

                      As a side note, Noddist mythology isn't the only mythology vampires have, it's just the most common among European kindred and their descendants. I think Settie mythology pegs the Antediluvians as the first vampires (bonus points: this makes the last pre-Gehenna generation 13), but I'm not able to source a quote.


                      Blue is sarcasm.

                      If I suggestion I make contradicts in-setting metaphysics please ignore me, I probably brought in scientific ideas.

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                      • #12
                        I tend to think that since the generation curse affected all 13 of the antediluvians, it likely involved Caine making the change to his version of the vampiric curse as a whole. Assuming the story is true and the various clans aren't the result of multiple supernatural curses/whatever that just happen to work in similar ways to each other and be somewhat more different from Kuei-jin and theoretical other types of vampires.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Schwann145 View Post
                          I mean, I know the Antediluvians killed/ate them off, but... like... how?

                          If there is a world of difference between the godlike 3rd generation and their childer the 4th generation, then there much be just as crazy, if not bigger, of a gap between 2 and 3. Heck, even some of the 3rd Gen that have been diablarized aren't necessarily dead (looking at you Saulot). And to top it all off, the 2nd Gen were active when the 3rd Gen killed them - they weren't slumbering torpored elders the way the 3rd Gen (generally) is.

                          I know the actual answer is essentially, "because the plot says so," but that's boring. :P
                          What are your thoughts?
                          Not necessarily the gap you think.

                          1) The peaks of Discipline power took millennia to reach. The only difference between a 3rd Gen Neonate and a 13th Gen Neonate is the amount of blood they can spend per turn, and in the age of the first city, supply probably limited that. So neither 2nd or 3rd Gen were on the scale of worldshaking blood gods we associate with the Antediluvians 10,000 years later.

                          2) it’s been suggested the thinning of the blood was a curse placed by Cain in response to the diablerie of the 2nd Generation. So other than having more time to advance disciplines the older they are, there’s no difference between inherent or potential power between the first 3 gens if that’s the case.


                          Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                          • #14
                            The Antes were younger. Probably had more humanity.

                            My money is on a daylight raid. Hit the seconds just after dawn.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
                              For starters, the power gap between generations didn't come into play until after the 3rd gens took down the 2nd gens. The difference in power between the generations at that time was just experience, with the 2nd being around for at least 2,000 years before the the 3rd.
                              Do you have a source for the 2nd generation being around for 2000 years before the third? I pretty much stopped reading anything published when V20 came so I have no idea what info the new books have brought to the table, but in older material I can't really recall anything that specific about the age gap. It was always my understanding that there wasn't much time between the 2nd and the 3rd, and that would be a logical reason for them to be hunted down with fire and weapons rather than discplines and magic.

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