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So how did the 2nd Gen die?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by anda View Post

    Do you have a source for the 2nd generation being around for 2000 years before the third? I pretty much stopped reading anything published when V20 came so I have no idea what info the new books have brought to the table, but in older material I can't really recall anything that specific about the age gap. It was always my understanding that there wasn't much time between the 2nd and the 3rd, and that would be a logical reason for them to be hunted down with fire and weapons rather than discplines and magic.
    The book of Nod states that the Antediluvians are at least 10,000 years old (Haqim is said to be the first 3rd gen and he is said to be around 10,000 years old). In our world the first signs of civilization date back to Sumer circa 10,000 B.C (that's 12,000 years ago). Enoch was king of the First City when Caine came around so its possible that he was embraced around that time, as he was embraced not long after Caine arrived.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


      This.

      Also, there were only 3 members of the 2nd generation, as opposed to the 13 members of the 3rd generation. So, you know... strength in numbers.
      Actually, 4 2nd generations that we know of and possibly up to 30 or more 3rd gens. 15 3rd generations are all the ones that we know the most about due to their Clans being prevalent. There are possibly more we know very little about such as Mekhet and Lucian.
      Last edited by Redwulfe; 05-24-2019, 03:40 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Redwulfe View Post
        15 3rd generations are all the ones that we know the most about due to their Clans being prevalent.
        Wait, fifteen?

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        • #19
          Yes, Tremere and Giovanni replaced Salut and Capadocious if you believe they diablerized them. This would still leave 13 but 15 in total though exotensiously they are still active without a body possibly. Tremere and Giovanni are not original 3rd generation nor are they Antidaluvians by the convention that they are older than the flood. Though you could also say that the other two that were named mentioned, Mekhet and Lucian and they could be names for two of the 13 known to have survived the flood or not both have been alluded to in the fluff. So I feel that either way there are probably 15 we know of that are of the 3rd generation. But you could also say that Tremere has left his body in the care of Salut for less hostile accommodations in Giortrix's body and is no longer of the 3rd generation.
          Last edited by Redwulfe; 05-24-2019, 04:58 PM.

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          • #20
            Tremere and Augustus aren't true Antediluvians in that they were embraced after the flood.

            Also, depending on the tales there were 5-7 2nd gens. The toreador talk of a pair of lovers that Caine embraced but committed suicide because they could not have children. The assamites claim Haqim self-embraced after killing a king and queen that Caine embraced.

            There were more than 13 3rd gens in the first city. But only 13 survived the flood and uprising against the 2nd gens. Mekhet is a legend. Even if she were real she's been trapped in the underworld and has never sired childer. Lucian is thought to be the name of several clan founders.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
              Tremere and Augustus aren't true Antediluvians in that they were embraced after the flood.

              Also, depending on the tales there were 5-7 2nd gens. The toreador talk of a pair of lovers that Caine embraced but committed suicide because they could not have children. The assamites claim Haqim self-embraced after killing a king and queen that Caine embraced.

              There were more than 13 3rd gens in the first city. But only 13 survived the flood and uprising against the 2nd gens. Mekhet is a legend. Even if she were real she's been trapped in the underworld and has never sired childer. Lucian is thought to be the name of several clan founders.
              Yes, they are not antediluvian, I said they were 3rd gen.

              As far as how many survived nothing was ever set in stone. Mekhet and Lucian are said to have survived and there are many references to them as either other names of two of the 13 to could be the 14th and 15th antediluvian. Of course, we don't know if the Incarna had more. Even in the Gehenna book several of the possibilities had other antediluvians in them. In V5 their is a chance that the coribian league come from an unknown antediluvian like the rumor that Mekhet was the founder of the Semedi or that they are directly from Lilith and then there is even the possibility that Lilith is the sire of Cain which is why he is the first generation and if she embraced other first gen then there are more than the 13 true antediluvians. It all depends on what the metaplot will need in the future or what you need for your chronicle, but no of it was set in stone.
              Last edited by Redwulfe; 05-24-2019, 09:44 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Kael03 View Post

                The book of Nod states that the Antediluvians are at least 10,000 years old (Haqim is said to be the first 3rd gen and he is said to be around 10,000 years old). In our world the first signs of civilization date back to Sumer circa 10,000 B.C (that's 12,000 years ago). Enoch was king of the First City when Caine came around so its possible that he was embraced around that time, as he was embraced not long after Caine arrived.

                Were is it stated that Haqim is the first 3rd gen and around 10,000 years old? As far as i can remember, the general consensus is that Arikel is the oldest ante and no specific age has been given for her. All we know is that the antes are atleast 10,000 years old. That means they can also be 11,000 or 12,000 years old. In which case the difference in age with the second generation becomes much less.

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                • #23
                  Assamite clan book states Haqim is 10,000 years old and the first of Zillah's brood.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
                    Assamite clan book states Haqim is 10,000 years old and the first of Zillah's brood.

                    Right of Zillah's brood. I believe Enoch was made vampire before her and Arikel was the first of his brood.
                    I would buy Haqim being the oldest ante if the story of his self-embrace was true. I honestly prefer that origin story because it makes Haqim an even bigger badass.

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                    • #25
                      The Age difference between 3rd Gen and 2nd Gen were not as pronounced. And some theories are each 2nd gen death was a separate event. I like Analects of the Third Gardens Take.

                      In the Age when the 2nd gen were slain some 4th Gen were comparable to some 3rd gen, and with a massive brood you can bolster your strength.

                      Also in theory the Curse of Caine's weaknesses could have been stronger along with the boons, so Fire, Torpor, and Sunlight could have been more pronounced threats.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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