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So how did the 2nd Gen die?

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  • Schwann145
    started a topic So how did the 2nd Gen die?

    So how did the 2nd Gen die?

    I mean, I know the Antediluvians killed/ate them off, but... like... how?

    If there is a world of difference between the godlike 3rd generation and their childer the 4th generation, then there much be just as crazy, if not bigger, of a gap between 2 and 3. Heck, even some of the 3rd Gen that have been diablarized aren't necessarily dead (looking at you Saulot). And to top it all off, the 2nd Gen were active when the 3rd Gen killed them - they weren't slumbering torpored elders the way the 3rd Gen (generally) is.

    I know the actual answer is essentially, "because the plot says so," but that's boring. :P
    What are your thoughts?

  • Eldagusto
    replied
    The Age difference between 3rd Gen and 2nd Gen were not as pronounced. And some theories are each 2nd gen death was a separate event. I like Analects of the Third Gardens Take.

    In the Age when the 2nd gen were slain some 4th Gen were comparable to some 3rd gen, and with a massive brood you can bolster your strength.

    Also in theory the Curse of Caine's weaknesses could have been stronger along with the boons, so Fire, Torpor, and Sunlight could have been more pronounced threats.

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  • blackshade
    replied
    Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
    Assamite clan book states Haqim is 10,000 years old and the first of Zillah's brood.

    Right of Zillah's brood. I believe Enoch was made vampire before her and Arikel was the first of his brood.
    I would buy Haqim being the oldest ante if the story of his self-embrace was true. I honestly prefer that origin story because it makes Haqim an even bigger badass.

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  • Kael03
    replied
    Assamite clan book states Haqim is 10,000 years old and the first of Zillah's brood.

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  • blackshade
    replied
    Originally posted by Kael03 View Post

    The book of Nod states that the Antediluvians are at least 10,000 years old (Haqim is said to be the first 3rd gen and he is said to be around 10,000 years old). In our world the first signs of civilization date back to Sumer circa 10,000 B.C (that's 12,000 years ago). Enoch was king of the First City when Caine came around so its possible that he was embraced around that time, as he was embraced not long after Caine arrived.

    Were is it stated that Haqim is the first 3rd gen and around 10,000 years old? As far as i can remember, the general consensus is that Arikel is the oldest ante and no specific age has been given for her. All we know is that the antes are atleast 10,000 years old. That means they can also be 11,000 or 12,000 years old. In which case the difference in age with the second generation becomes much less.

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  • Redwulfe
    replied
    Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
    Tremere and Augustus aren't true Antediluvians in that they were embraced after the flood.

    Also, depending on the tales there were 5-7 2nd gens. The toreador talk of a pair of lovers that Caine embraced but committed suicide because they could not have children. The assamites claim Haqim self-embraced after killing a king and queen that Caine embraced.

    There were more than 13 3rd gens in the first city. But only 13 survived the flood and uprising against the 2nd gens. Mekhet is a legend. Even if she were real she's been trapped in the underworld and has never sired childer. Lucian is thought to be the name of several clan founders.
    Yes, they are not antediluvian, I said they were 3rd gen.

    As far as how many survived nothing was ever set in stone. Mekhet and Lucian are said to have survived and there are many references to them as either other names of two of the 13 to could be the 14th and 15th antediluvian. Of course, we don't know if the Incarna had more. Even in the Gehenna book several of the possibilities had other antediluvians in them. In V5 their is a chance that the coribian league come from an unknown antediluvian like the rumor that Mekhet was the founder of the Semedi or that they are directly from Lilith and then there is even the possibility that Lilith is the sire of Cain which is why he is the first generation and if she embraced other first gen then there are more than the 13 true antediluvians. It all depends on what the metaplot will need in the future or what you need for your chronicle, but no of it was set in stone.
    Last edited by Redwulfe; 05-24-2019, 09:44 PM.

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  • Kael03
    replied
    Tremere and Augustus aren't true Antediluvians in that they were embraced after the flood.

    Also, depending on the tales there were 5-7 2nd gens. The toreador talk of a pair of lovers that Caine embraced but committed suicide because they could not have children. The assamites claim Haqim self-embraced after killing a king and queen that Caine embraced.

    There were more than 13 3rd gens in the first city. But only 13 survived the flood and uprising against the 2nd gens. Mekhet is a legend. Even if she were real she's been trapped in the underworld and has never sired childer. Lucian is thought to be the name of several clan founders.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redwulfe
    replied
    Yes, Tremere and Giovanni replaced Salut and Capadocious if you believe they diablerized them. This would still leave 13 but 15 in total though exotensiously they are still active without a body possibly. Tremere and Giovanni are not original 3rd generation nor are they Antidaluvians by the convention that they are older than the flood. Though you could also say that the other two that were named mentioned, Mekhet and Lucian and they could be names for two of the 13 known to have survived the flood or not both have been alluded to in the fluff. So I feel that either way there are probably 15 we know of that are of the 3rd generation. But you could also say that Tremere has left his body in the care of Salut for less hostile accommodations in Giortrix's body and is no longer of the 3rd generation.
    Last edited by Redwulfe; 05-24-2019, 04:58 PM.

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  • Draconis
    replied
    Originally posted by Redwulfe View Post
    15 3rd generations are all the ones that we know the most about due to their Clans being prevalent.
    Wait, fifteen?

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  • Redwulfe
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


    This.

    Also, there were only 3 members of the 2nd generation, as opposed to the 13 members of the 3rd generation. So, you know... strength in numbers.
    Actually, 4 2nd generations that we know of and possibly up to 30 or more 3rd gens. 15 3rd generations are all the ones that we know the most about due to their Clans being prevalent. There are possibly more we know very little about such as Mekhet and Lucian.
    Last edited by Redwulfe; 05-24-2019, 03:40 PM.

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  • Kael03
    replied
    Originally posted by anda View Post

    Do you have a source for the 2nd generation being around for 2000 years before the third? I pretty much stopped reading anything published when V20 came so I have no idea what info the new books have brought to the table, but in older material I can't really recall anything that specific about the age gap. It was always my understanding that there wasn't much time between the 2nd and the 3rd, and that would be a logical reason for them to be hunted down with fire and weapons rather than discplines and magic.
    The book of Nod states that the Antediluvians are at least 10,000 years old (Haqim is said to be the first 3rd gen and he is said to be around 10,000 years old). In our world the first signs of civilization date back to Sumer circa 10,000 B.C (that's 12,000 years ago). Enoch was king of the First City when Caine came around so its possible that he was embraced around that time, as he was embraced not long after Caine arrived.

    Leave a comment:


  • anda
    replied
    Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
    For starters, the power gap between generations didn't come into play until after the 3rd gens took down the 2nd gens. The difference in power between the generations at that time was just experience, with the 2nd being around for at least 2,000 years before the the 3rd.
    Do you have a source for the 2nd generation being around for 2000 years before the third? I pretty much stopped reading anything published when V20 came so I have no idea what info the new books have brought to the table, but in older material I can't really recall anything that specific about the age gap. It was always my understanding that there wasn't much time between the 2nd and the 3rd, and that would be a logical reason for them to be hunted down with fire and weapons rather than discplines and magic.

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  • Legendre
    replied
    The Antes were younger. Probably had more humanity.

    My money is on a daylight raid. Hit the seconds just after dawn.

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  • glamourweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Schwann145 View Post
    I mean, I know the Antediluvians killed/ate them off, but... like... how?

    If there is a world of difference between the godlike 3rd generation and their childer the 4th generation, then there much be just as crazy, if not bigger, of a gap between 2 and 3. Heck, even some of the 3rd Gen that have been diablarized aren't necessarily dead (looking at you Saulot). And to top it all off, the 2nd Gen were active when the 3rd Gen killed them - they weren't slumbering torpored elders the way the 3rd Gen (generally) is.

    I know the actual answer is essentially, "because the plot says so," but that's boring. :P
    What are your thoughts?
    Not necessarily the gap you think.

    1) The peaks of Discipline power took millennia to reach. The only difference between a 3rd Gen Neonate and a 13th Gen Neonate is the amount of blood they can spend per turn, and in the age of the first city, supply probably limited that. So neither 2nd or 3rd Gen were on the scale of worldshaking blood gods we associate with the Antediluvians 10,000 years later.

    2) it’s been suggested the thinning of the blood was a curse placed by Cain in response to the diablerie of the 2nd Generation. So other than having more time to advance disciplines the older they are, there’s no difference between inherent or potential power between the first 3 gens if that’s the case.

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  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    I tend to think that since the generation curse affected all 13 of the antediluvians, it likely involved Caine making the change to his version of the vampiric curse as a whole. Assuming the story is true and the various clans aren't the result of multiple supernatural curses/whatever that just happen to work in similar ways to each other and be somewhat more different from Kuei-jin and theoretical other types of vampires.

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