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Daimoinon and Dark Thaumaturgy

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  • Daimoinon and Dark Thaumaturgy

    I was wondering if Daimoinon could be accessed through a pact with a Demon. I know that Dark Thaumaturgy could be, However Daimoinon is an art of the Baali which focuses on The Children of the Outer Dark. Which brings me to the next question.

    The Children of the Outer Dark and the fallen supposed to be the same entity?

  • #2
    the book with the rules you are working for is Dark Ages Devil's due , the information is in the appendix

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
      the book with the rules you are working for is Dark Ages Devil's due , the information is in the appendix
      Yeah I'm aware of it simply had a conflict about it and I'd love to hear what others would say.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Lirbo View Post
        Yeah I'm aware of it simply had a conflict about it and I'd love to hear what others would say.
        hm,personally i feel like the Fallen from their own game are their own category,and what the Baali deal with are another.
        however,the Fallen from DTF and the Fallen from Devil's Due are not the same,they have big differences in powersand in motivations

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        • #5
          If anything, when the Children of the Outer Dark have been described, they sound more like the Neverborn of Wraith than anything else.


          Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by marin View Post
            If anything, when the Children of the Outer Dark have been described, they sound more like the Neverborn of Wraith than anything else.
            Agreed. The 'bodies' Shaitan and others have tried to dig up are just the physical shells of these cosmic entities. When the Baali do their thang to wake them up, they actually bring the two elements (the dead husks, the sleeping Underworld gods) closer together.

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            • #7
              Bringing things back around to the first question, I see no reason not to allow a vampire to gain dots in Daimoinon through demonic bargains. Of all the Disciplines in the game, Daimoinon would be the one that demons might know how to teach.

              Mind you, I'm generally of the opinion that Daimoinon should, rather, just be a Path belonging to Dark Thaumaturgy, rather than an independent Discipline. All powers above rank 5 work so thoroughly as Rituals as to be explicitly described as such in most cases. If that were the case, there'd be no question as to whether a demon could teach it. It's the same as teaching other forms of infernal magic.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                Mind you, I'm generally of the opinion that Daimoinon should, rather, just be a Path belonging to Dark Thaumaturgy, rather than an independent Discipline.
                Looking at the publication history of Daimoinon (or Daimonion) and Dark Thaumaturgy, you could make the argument that the former was nothing more than a beta version of the latter. The Storytellers Handbook included several sketch versions of concepts that would later be expanded on in The Players Guide to the Sabbat and the Storytellers Handbook to the Sabbat. As a result, almost all Daimoinon powers are conceptually identical to Dark Thaumaturgy paths -- Daimoinon • is the Path of Secret Knowledge, Daimoinon •• & •••• are the Path of Phobos, Daimoinon ••• is the Fires of the Inferno, and so on.

                I can't think of a similar situation with any other Disciplines in the game. For example, imagine if Thaumaturgy had entire paths dedicated to replicating the effects of every level of Vicissitude. Consequently, I've never seen much point in the Baali and Daimoinon in chronicles where Infernalists and Dark Thaumaturgy exist. The latter do everything the former do, only with more variety and flexibility.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
                  Looking at the publication history of Daimoinon (or Daimonion) and Dark Thaumaturgy, you could make the argument that the former was nothing more than a beta version of the latter. The Storytellers Handbook included several sketch versions of concepts that would later be expanded on in The Players Guide to the Sabbat and the Storytellers Handbook to the Sabbat. As a result, almost all Daimoinon powers are conceptually identical to Dark Thaumaturgy paths -- Daimoinon • is the Path of Secret Knowledge, Daimoinon •• & •••• are the Path of Phobos, Daimoinon ••• is the Fires of the Inferno, and so on.

                  I can't think of a similar situation with any other Disciplines in the game. For example, imagine if Thaumaturgy had entire paths dedicated to replicating the effects of every level of Vicissitude. Consequently, I've never seen much point in the Baali and Daimoinon in chronicles where Infernalists and Dark Thaumaturgy exist. The latter do everything the former do, only with more variety and flexibility.
                  Similar things have happened before: for example, Deimos, Mortis, and Nihilistics all became Necromancy paths, while Striga and Maleficia (Infernalist powers pre-Revised) both got merged into Dark Thaumaturgy.

                  That said, Daimonion does show up as its own thing in V20, like how Thanatosis is still separate from Necromancy. So, the argument could go either way.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Draconis View Post
                    Similar things have happened before: for example, Deimos, Mortis, and Nihilistics all became Necromancy paths, while Striga and Maleficia (Infernalist powers pre-Revised) both got merged into Dark Thaumaturgy.
                    Mmm. I don't think those instances are that similar -- they're all examples of streamlining existing content that is typical of late edition material. In contrast, the relationship between the original 1992 version of Daimoinon and the initial 1993 version of Dark Thaumaturgy is one of expansion -- taking the relatively simplistic Daimoinon powers presented in The Storytellers Handbook and creating Thaumaturgy paths out of all of them.

                    You could follow the example of Revised-era streamlining and merge Daimoinon into Dark Thaumaturgy as Bluecho suggested, but my argument is that it would be unnecessary, since there are already entire paths dedicated to powers that are strikingly similar to each level of Daimoinon. For instance, Daimoinon ••• is about blasting people with unholy fire, and Fires of the Inferno is a five-level path that's all about blasting people with unholy fire.

                    Originally posted by Draconis View Post
                    That said, Daimonion does show up as its own thing in V20, like how Thanatosis is still separate from Necromancy. So, the argument could go either way.
                    In the end, the line between Disciplines and Thaumaturgy paths is almost nonexistent, because the difference between the two was never clearly defined. It's always going to be a judgment call. V20 reflects the tastes of its developers, and isn't particularly coherent in its design philosophy anyway. For example, while Deimos and Nihilistics are Necromancy paths as in Revised, Spiritus remains its own thing, contrary to the Revised suggestion of using Thaumaturgy in its stead. Or, like you say, how Thanatosis got left out of the Necromancy streamlining party.

                    Any mature game line is going to be full of these kinds of artefacts, as each crop of designers revises the parts that interest them and neglects the parts that they don't care about.
                    Last edited by Elphilm; 05-19-2019, 08:48 PM.

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                    • #11
                      I don't think it's ever explicitly stated.
                      From the perspective of only using the Vampire Splat; I'd say yes; Infernalism deals with demons who are fallen angels.
                      For a cross-Splat including Demon:The Fallen - No, It doesn't quite fit, Neither the Fallen or Earthbound operate like that; And a Vampire's soul is useless, so they wouldn't trade anything for it.
                      Last edited by Illithid; 05-20-2019, 01:33 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
                        In the end, the line between Disciplines and Thaumaturgy paths is almost nonexistent, because the difference between the two was never clearly defined. It's always going to be a judgment call. V20 reflects the tastes of its developers, and isn't particularly coherent in its design philosophy anyway. For example, while Deimos and Nihilistics are Necromancy paths as in Revised, Spiritus remains its own thing, contrary to the Revised suggestion of using Thaumaturgy in its stead. Or, like you say, how Thanatosis got left out of the Necromancy streamlining party.

                        Any mature game line is going to be full of these kinds of artefacts, as each crop of designers revises the parts that interest them and neglects the parts that they don't care about.
                        I don't think V20's handling of Paths and Disciplines was so much a matter of personal preference on the part of the designers, so much as a manifestation of different design goals. The designers of V20 wanted to put out an omnibus of options from throughout VtM's history, over multiple generations. It's why we saw the return of Bloodlines like the Children of Osiris and the re-affirmation of the existence of the Tal'Mahe'Ra. It was giving players and storytellers the option of running the game with elements that certain editions would have dispensed with. This is also why they presented both the pre- and post-Revised versions of groups like the Assamites.

                        The goal was providing the broadest swath of options possible. Although I won't deny that this function was applied inconsistently. Disciplines like Spiritus, Thanatosis, and Daimoinon were retained as-is, while the Cappadocians and Lamia had their powers folded into Necromancy.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                          I don't think V20's handling of Paths and Disciplines was so much a matter of personal preference on the part of the designers, so much as a manifestation of different design goals. The designers of V20 wanted to put out an omnibus of options from throughout VtM's history, over multiple generations. It's why we saw the return of Bloodlines like the Children of Osiris and the re-affirmation of the existence of the Tal'Mahe'Ra. It was giving players and storytellers the option of running the game with elements that certain editions would have dispensed with. This is also why they presented both the pre- and post-Revised versions of groups like the Assamites.
                          Yes, of course. I agree that V20 was intended as an omnibus edition, but even there the designers had to choose between multiple interpretations of ideas and concepts developed during VtM's original run. Hence, judgment calls and individual tastes.

                          It's funny that you mention the Children of Osiris, though, because as far as I can tell, the interpretation of them as a bloodline is unique to V20. The original Children of Osiris in Hunters Hunted were presented as a (tiny) sect, not a bloodline.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
                            Yes, of course. I agree that V20 was intended as an omnibus edition, but even there the designers had to choose between multiple interpretations of ideas and concepts developed during VtM's original run. Hence, judgment calls and individual tastes.

                            It's funny that you mention the Children of Osiris, though, because as far as I can tell, the interpretation of them as a bloodline is unique to V20. The original Children of Osiris in Hunters Hunted were presented as a (tiny) sect, not a bloodline.
                            While they are a "Bloodline" according to the section that they're in, "Strictly speaking, the Children of Osiris are a Sect, rather than a bloodline. They do not (and, by virtue of their own laws, cannot) join the Sabbat or the Camarilla."
                            They Gain Bardo as an additional In clan, but have no additional weakness in V20 Modern...
                            Whereas in Dark ages they have 2 from original clan Plus Bardo and have the original weakness Plus can't embrace in Dark ages.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                              While they are a "Bloodline" according to the section that they're in, "Strictly speaking, the Children of Osiris are a Sect, rather than a bloodline. They do not (and, by virtue of their own laws, cannot) join the Sabbat or the Camarilla."
                              They Gain Bardo as an additional In clan, but have no additional weakness in V20 Modern...
                              Yes, that is what I mean when I say the Children of Osiris are presented as a bloodline in V20 -- membership modifies your in-clan Disciplines, which is an interpretation unique to V20. Originally, Bardo was the earliest (and pretty much the only?) example of a "sect Discipline" rather than a clan/bloodline Discipline, always purchased at out-of-clan costs.

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