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  • #16
    Being mind controlled. I might not like the sun, but still. Immortality sucks in the first place. Immortality as a bloodsucking corpse with serve Id issues? Much worse.


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    • #17
      Becoming a Vampire is pretty much like any other fantasy about changing ones station in life. We think about all the potential benefits, we don't understand the full weight of the drawbacks, and of course there is the stuff that we can't even consider because our point of view doesn't cover it. It is kind of like the saying that having money doesn't get rid of your problems, it just changes the problems you have to deal with.

      Getting a turned into a vampire doesn't immediately give a person a mental upgrade that allows them to think five steps ahead of most mortals, nor does it allow you to memorize all those annoying text books or legal tomes any easier. In short a person who is going to become a successful vampire would need to have many of those successful behaviors and traits already as a human. But those tend to be uncommon as is. Hence why so many lottery winners end up bankrupt within a few years and those that don't lose their money report not being any happier in life.

      I feel a lot of people from the modern age would just turn into Pearl from the first Blade movie. An overstuffed sofa is pretty much the same regardless if it is filled with blood or Cheetos. Gaining power is rather pointless if you lack perception and self discipline, but for some reason when asked about a fantasy situation like this, most people talk about the power boost.

      I agree that V20 and earlier editions would be preferable to being turned into a V5 bloodsucker as far as managing the negatives. Though a better question is if we are indulging in this thought experiment, are we including the setting as well? Because depending on where you live, different editions can have a huge impact on your unlife. For instance if you are a native to California, it being an Anarch Free State won't really be that much a life style shift. On the other hand if you live in or near San Francisco then the whole Kuei-Jin invasion thing would complicate matters.

      If I had to go the undead route, I would probably go with a Tremere or Lasombra Antitribu for clans.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
        As thousands - millions, really - of people, past and present, have demonstrated, you can be alive and be phenomenally Evil.

        Indeed, being a vampire sort of gets in the way of Evil, what with the Beast threatening to swallow you whole. At least when you're on the Path of Humanity.
        Being a vampire doen't mean you can become a worse monster.

        Being a vampire means you can become a monster and get away with it.

        The average person is good and evil because they can manage their ambitions.

        The Blood Bond, Dominate, Presence, Obfuscate and even just the Masquerade itself means that you can never fear any repercussions against mortals if you're even the slightest bit clever.

        One of the scenes I always run in my campaigns for newbs is like this.

        "OH MY GOD, I JUST KILLED THAT GUY!" (I describe it in horrifying detail)

        *older vampire*

        "Call this guy."

        "Huh?"

        "His name is Howard. He'll deal with this. You still hungry? I know a good club. Be sure to take his wallet. He won't be needing it."
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 05-25-2019, 02:19 AM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          Being a vampire doen't mean you can become a worse monster.

          Being a vampire means you can become a monster and get away with it.

          The average person is good and evil because they can manage their ambitions.

          The Blood Bond, Dominate, Presence, Obfuscate and even just the Masquerade itself means that you can never fear any repercussions against mortals if you're even the slightest bit clever.

          One of the scenes I always run in my campaigns for newbs is like this.

          "OH MY GOD, I JUST KILLED THAT GUY!" (I describe it in horrifying detail)

          *older vampire*

          "Call this guy."

          "Huh?"

          "His name is Howard. He'll deal with this. You still hungry? I know a good club. Be sure to take his wallet. He won't be needing it."

          Unless you actually own the police, or dominate the city council, I would imagine that cover ups can be quite expensive affairs. Even more so if every vampire in the city treats their victims with such callous disregard. You may be an extremely powerful monster, but killing your victims should still be a last resort, as opposed to your go to option.

          Body Counts tend to rack up after a while, and people are going to start noticing if their local population has a string of unsolved missing persons cases.You don't place value in human life? That's fine, but you should at least be smart enough to recognize that rampant murder is going to end badly in the long run.

          Originally posted by Thoth View Post
          If I had to go the undead route, I would probably go with a Tremere or Lasombra Antitribu for clans.

          Me as a Tremere: Nobody said there'd be math!

          Regent: There's always math when it comes to science, dear boy.

          Me: Science!? I thought we were doing magic!

          Regent: Science is the basis for our magic.

          Me: Fuck this, I'm joining House Carna!
          Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-25-2019, 03:57 AM.

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          • #20

            Unless you actually own the police, or dominate the city council, I would imagine that cover ups can be quite expensive affairs. Even more so if every vampire in the city treats their victims with such callous disregard. You may be an extremely powerful monster, but killing your victims should still be a last resort, as opposed to your go to option.

            Body Counts tend to rack up after a while, and people are going to start noticing if their local population has a string of unsolved missing persons cases.You don't place value in human life? That's fine, but you should at least be smart enough to recognize that rampant murder is going to end badly in the long run
            sincerity mode If vampires haven't managed to cover up murders in the World of Darkness, something every vampire can and will do at least once in their first year let alone with all the typical action a PC deals with, how does the Masquerade hold?

            The scene is to illustrate life is cheap, most vampires don't care about humans, and they hold incredible power over humans. In my WOD, a murder will be "solved" only if a victim is rich and usually by grabbing someone the cops don't like.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post


              sincerity mode If vampires haven't managed to cover up murders in the World of Darkness, something every vampire can and will do at least once in their first year let alone with all the typical action a PC deals with, how does the Masquerade hold?

              The scene is to illustrate life is cheap, most vampires don't care about humans, and they hold incredible power over humans. In my WOD, a murder will be "solved" only if a victim is rich and usually by grabbing someone the cops don't like.

              Of course, but as I said in the last part of my quote, it's not ONE murder that you have to be concerned about. It's MULTIPLE murders happening within a small time frame of each other. Even though WoD is supposed to be a darker, more corrupt version of our world, You would have to live in some kind of war torn, dilapidated ghetto to make me believe that 40 to 60 vampires killing indiscriminately would go unnoticed.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                Of course, but as I said in the last part of my quote, it's not ONE murder that you have to be concerned about. It's MULTIPLE murders happening within a small time frame of each other. Even though WoD is supposed to be a darker, more corrupt version of our world, You would have to live in some kind of war torn, dilapidated ghetto to make me believe that 40 to 60 vampires killing indiscriminately would go unnoticed.
                In my games, vampires who kill their prey are considered to be very rude and potentially a threat. It's something that happens, though, and something you shouldn't worry too much about.

                It's like working for the mafia in a very-very violent crime ridden city.

                I try and emphasize that all vampires have at least one accidental murder in their past. Probably more than one.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #23
                  immortality is not a done deal
                  at least not in VtM, where many vampires die younger than they would have as a human,
                  and the Jyhad is a pain in the ass (and probably several other places)

                  eternal youth/beauty requires a Tzim, or being a Tzim, and not being a nossie or a gangrel (that's a lot of conditions...)

                  so, uh, I guess I'd take it cause of strength and health,
                  I'm sick of waking up every morning tired and spend the day tired,
                  and I'm sick of feeling powerless when required to do the simplest of tasks

                  another thing would be the kiss,
                  it's a really convenient feature, for obvious reasons and other more...personal...reasons

                  I don't really mind the beast, since it's supposed to be the seat of any vampire's passion, the benefits outweigh the costs imo

                  and most important of all, not having to go to the toilet for the rest of my life...seriously, I'd kill for just that
                  Last edited by Pleiades; 05-25-2019, 09:59 AM.


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                  • #24
                    No, fuck no. Sure there's a lot of benefits to being a vampire; longevity, Disciplines, the potential to surpass mortal boundaries. But the drawbacks simply outweigh them.

                    Where once you had love, you will find only lust; where once you had friends, you will find allies at best and enemies at worst; where once you had peace there will be only constant strife, death and war, being tangled in the webs of the Jyhad and fighting a vicious nightly battle for survival. Not to mention the constant ravage of the Beast and an endless, insatiable hunger that replaces every single emotion you will ever feel. There's also the ostracism, you're forever apart from the world you were born in, shunned by it, and the only way to fight this loneliness is to fraternize with your undead kin who would sooner see you dead than suffer your presence as competition for sustenance.

                    The price of death is steep, and the glamour of Disciplines and immortality quickly wither away when the weight of eternity settles in. It's an existence marked by violence, death and murder becomes kin to you.

                    So yes, I rather die of old age than become a vampire, and if any of you knew any better you would choose the same too. Let's be honest here, it's an existence none of us here can survive.

                    And no, before you say it, vampirism is not "transhumanism", it's a curse, you're a bloodsucking corpse for fuck's sake. A parasite.
                    Last edited by Shawarbaaz; 05-25-2019, 03:09 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                      On the upsides: CTPhipps say:



                      All in all it's a prety sweet deal. Talk about being Cursed with Awesome (then again, the founders had to work their elbow to make sure their curse became a blessing)

                      On the downside:

                      *Always Hungry unless u kill people.
                      *The Beast makes a mess of your life. You need to be constantly suppressing yourself, and even then it will come out at a bad moment eventually and ruin your life
                      *Being the permanent subordinate of - capital E - Evil bastards (and yes, I know there's the Anarchy. Say hy to the Baron). Solved by going Autarkis, but that takes down half the advantages (all the social ones), it's almost better to tolerate your Sire and get sure you're the least expendable you can be
                      *Being always paranoid about the Inquisition (and many others) hunting you

                      But the upsides are still there and are many for one that can adjust to the big shift. All in all it ain't that bad
                      If you check the TVTrope for Cursed with Awesome you won't find VTM, it's in fact listed under Blessed with Suck, and for good reason.

                      It seems great when when we look at it from a detached perspective, because humans have this funny tendency of seeing everything through rose-tinted glasses and always thinking of the benefits, never the detriment. But go just a few years as a vampire and you'll be singing a different song.

                      I mean the Beast and violent existence aside, have you fucking *seen* Kindred Society? Those are your only kinship now, and there's no escape from them.

                      And imagine being Embraced into one of the less fortunate clan, being forever cursed with insanity as a Malkavian, or being doubly ostracized as a Nosferatu. It's not a fun time.
                      Last edited by Shawarbaaz; 05-25-2019, 03:16 PM.

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                      • #26
                        One more thing I'd like to add: it's not immortality, it's undeath. Big fucking difference.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

                          And no, before you say it, vampirism is not "transhumanism", it's a curse, you're a bloodsucking corpse for fuck's sake. A parasite.
                          And yet, these are problems which the Ordo Dracul have made some progress towards solving.

                          Sure, they're not from the Masquerade setting, but you get my point.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
                            One more thing I'd like to add: it's not immortality, it's undeath. Big fucking difference.

                            Honestly, I'd happily take undeath over immortality.

                            Immortality would be soul crushingly BORING, as there would come a point where everything seems repetitive after a while.

                            Undeath, on the other hand, preserves you in a state of youthful vitality. Even if you're embraced at an old age, it's a general consensus that the transformation endows you with a renewed sense of vigor. If the time comes, when you decide that you've gotten bored of existence in this world, you can end your life at a time of your choosing. Instead of allowing nature to dictate it for you.

                            And if you run into a bit of bad luck, and die in a way that's not exactly on your own terms, you can take comfort in knowing that you went out in the prime of your (un)life, instead of a withered, sickly, mentally degraded shadow of what you once were.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                              Honestly, I'd happily take undeath over immortality.

                              Immortality would be soul crushingly BORING, as there would come a point where everything seems repetitive after a while.

                              Undeath, on the other hand, preserves you in a state of youthful vitality. Even if you're embraced at an old age, it's a general consensus that the transformation endows you with a renewed sense of vigor. If the time comes, when you decide that you've gotten bored of existence in this world, you can end your life at a time of your choosing. Instead of allowing nature to dictate it for you.

                              And if you run into a bit of bad luck, and die in a way that's not exactly on your own terms, you can take comfort in knowing that you went out in the prime of your (un)life, instead of a withered, sickly, mentally degraded shadow of what you once were.
                              I'd argue that vampires ARE the withered, sickly, degraded shadows of what they once were. Parasites who are only better than humanity in their capacity for violence, murder and deceit.There's no vitality in unlife, only stolen life. There's no vigor but the weight of ages, there's nothing, *nothing* redeemable about being Kindred.

                              Besides, there's no guarantee that you will live for eternity, the majority of vampires lead a brief, violent existence. Either murdered or diablerized by one of their own kind. If the plethora of curses that come with being a vampire isn't enough for you to renounce your existence, then other vampires will be reason enough. Hell is other people.
                              Last edited by Shawarbaaz; 05-25-2019, 03:39 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                                Unless you actually own the police, or dominate the city council, I would imagine that cover ups can be quite expensive affairs. Even more so if every vampire in the city treats their victims with such callous disregard. You may be an extremely powerful monster, but killing your victims should still be a last resort, as opposed to your go to option.

                                Body Counts tend to rack up after a while, and people are going to start noticing if their local population has a string of unsolved missing persons cases.You don't place value in human life? That's fine, but you should at least be smart enough to recognize that rampant murder is going to end badly in the long run.
                                Dominate a homeless bum, have him fire half a dozen rounds into the body, dump the body in a burn barrel, douse it with lighter fluid, and then light it. Call a tame cop in advance so that he just happens to be in the area and sees the burning barrel in an empty lot, stops to check it out, and this idiot starts shooting at him. Cop shoots back and kills the bum.

                                Covering up a dead body can be done in any number of ways and can actually even serve your other plans. Have a patsy that you are trying to get promoted? Drop the body somewhere, plant some evidence on the patsy's boss, and then call the cops.

                                Now yes, killing your blood bags is generally a bad idea and not something you should do. Especially not when three drops of blood over three days will blood bond a nurse skilled in drawing blood. Blood bond one of those and then find a nice neighborhood in suburbia. Find a couple married couples and blood bond them. Have the nurse drive around a circuit every day on the way home from work to collect the days blood and then drop it off at a chosen location. Every night when you wake up you could easily have several blood points worth of fresh blood sitting on your table ready for consumption. That can be set up within a week of starting the chronicle, can easily be made redundant via use of a cellular structure and multiply nurses (and drop off points), and has virtually zero risk as your thralls going nuts and killing one another simply gets written off as a domestic disturbance gone bad while you go out and bond some replacements.

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