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  • #76
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    This was in response to CTPhilips saying they hunt demons. And to be fair sometimes they do hunt demons, the conquest of Mexico centuries ago involved hunting some demons. But I know what you mean.
    yes, that was one of those rare moments,
    at the time, the Inquisition wasn't a thing yet, and infernalism wasn't outlawed
    it was a conflict between the sabbat and the nahualli (and their gods) rather than an infernalist hunt

    the only other ocurrence I know of would be in Marseille where the Archbishop was tricked by a demon and now she has to deal with it directly (no infernalists involved)


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    • #77
      It certainly looks like there's lots of hypocrisy going on in the Sabbat, where they oppose making deals with demons, but their pillar clans deal with Kupala and the Abyss on a nightly basis.

      In defense of the Sabbat, though, the term "demon" is not easily defined, and they are arguably doing the best they can with a bad situation.

      Best as I can figure there are a few traits that define a "demon":
      • The entity is ethereal in its "natural" form, physical interactions being through possession, supernatural influence, or brief embodiments... the latter usually requiring a summoning ritual of some sort performed by physical beings.
      • The entity has some degree of intelligence and sentience, as well as personal motivations and goals which may range from the mundane to the alien.
      • The entity is not in any way of human origin, such as wraiths, changing breeds inhabiting the umbra, or powerful mages who have left their bodies behind.
      • The entity is not clearly identified by occultists as being a known supernatural species or phenomenon, such as chimera, pagan gods, or garou totems.
      • As a corollary to that last one, the entity is not a "known quantity" connected to Cainite powers, such as the spirits manipulated through Thaumaturgy and other blood sorceries, or the alien intelligences that seem to compose the Abyss.
      This all seems to come down to "spirits we don't understand, that don't share our agenda, that we haven't as a clan or sect built an alliance with, and we can't convince ourselves we outright control".

      As a legal point, deals with demons might be forbidden within the Sabbat even if the sect had never heard of demons. Any side-deal that creates obligations to someone outside the sect is immediately suspect under the Code of Milan, sec. 10.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
        It certainly looks like there's lots of hypocrisy going on in the Sabbat, where they oppose making deals with demons, but their pillar clans deal with Kupala and the Abyss on a nightly basis.
        not really hypocrisy, it's mostly that there are several factions in the sabbat that had varying stances concerning the infernalists (and demons)

        the main body of the sabbat was tolerant of the infernalists at first, while those who opposed them were only small factions that were drowned and ignored in what was already a mess of arguing factions

        however, infernalism went too far, demons took too much power in the sect and subverted the cainite cause into an infernal cause,
        some were seeing too much competition,
        some didn't like that demons were doing the same thing antideluvians and methuselah were doing before them,
        and those small factions that always opposed infernalism now got a bigger voice,
        then the Inquisition was formed, and you know the rest of the story

        the real hypocrisy starts when you see how the sect handles infernalism problems,
        the Inquisition (as well as most of the sect) is very ignorant of most things demon, and are ill equipped to handle those matters properly,
        as a result, alot of it is handled through pure politicking,
        if you have good backing, you can get away with even some of the worst infernal crimes,
        if not, just an accusation of being infernal or something wrong in your aura is gonna get you killed


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