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  • Houston810
    started a topic Why be a vampire?

    Why be a vampire?

    If given the choice, why be a vampire? What would mainly motive you? Immortality? Power? What would dissuade you? I life in the dark?

  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    It certainly looks like there's lots of hypocrisy going on in the Sabbat, where they oppose making deals with demons, but their pillar clans deal with Kupala and the Abyss on a nightly basis.
    not really hypocrisy, it's mostly that there are several factions in the sabbat that had varying stances concerning the infernalists (and demons)

    the main body of the sabbat was tolerant of the infernalists at first, while those who opposed them were only small factions that were drowned and ignored in what was already a mess of arguing factions

    however, infernalism went too far, demons took too much power in the sect and subverted the cainite cause into an infernal cause,
    some were seeing too much competition,
    some didn't like that demons were doing the same thing antideluvians and methuselah were doing before them,
    and those small factions that always opposed infernalism now got a bigger voice,
    then the Inquisition was formed, and you know the rest of the story

    the real hypocrisy starts when you see how the sect handles infernalism problems,
    the Inquisition (as well as most of the sect) is very ignorant of most things demon, and are ill equipped to handle those matters properly,
    as a result, alot of it is handled through pure politicking,
    if you have good backing, you can get away with even some of the worst infernal crimes,
    if not, just an accusation of being infernal or something wrong in your aura is gonna get you killed

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  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    It certainly looks like there's lots of hypocrisy going on in the Sabbat, where they oppose making deals with demons, but their pillar clans deal with Kupala and the Abyss on a nightly basis.

    In defense of the Sabbat, though, the term "demon" is not easily defined, and they are arguably doing the best they can with a bad situation.

    Best as I can figure there are a few traits that define a "demon":
    • The entity is ethereal in its "natural" form, physical interactions being through possession, supernatural influence, or brief embodiments... the latter usually requiring a summoning ritual of some sort performed by physical beings.
    • The entity has some degree of intelligence and sentience, as well as personal motivations and goals which may range from the mundane to the alien.
    • The entity is not in any way of human origin, such as wraiths, changing breeds inhabiting the umbra, or powerful mages who have left their bodies behind.
    • The entity is not clearly identified by occultists as being a known supernatural species or phenomenon, such as chimera, pagan gods, or garou totems.
    • As a corollary to that last one, the entity is not a "known quantity" connected to Cainite powers, such as the spirits manipulated through Thaumaturgy and other blood sorceries, or the alien intelligences that seem to compose the Abyss.
    This all seems to come down to "spirits we don't understand, that don't share our agenda, that we haven't as a clan or sect built an alliance with, and we can't convince ourselves we outright control".

    As a legal point, deals with demons might be forbidden within the Sabbat even if the sect had never heard of demons. Any side-deal that creates obligations to someone outside the sect is immediately suspect under the Code of Milan, sec. 10.

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  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    This was in response to CTPhilips saying they hunt demons. And to be fair sometimes they do hunt demons, the conquest of Mexico centuries ago involved hunting some demons. But I know what you mean.
    yes, that was one of those rare moments,
    at the time, the Inquisition wasn't a thing yet, and infernalism wasn't outlawed
    it was a conflict between the sabbat and the nahualli (and their gods) rather than an infernalist hunt

    the only other ocurrence I know of would be in Marseille where the Archbishop was tricked by a demon and now she has to deal with it directly (no infernalists involved)

    Leave a comment:


  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

    they don't hunt demons, they hunt infernalists (big difference)
    going after the demon is a last resort scenario
    and, ironically, the Inquisition has made the Sabbat pretty bad and going against demons, until after the Tremere antis got nuked



    demons by Inquisition (and my most vampire) standards, are anything from fallen, spirits, shades etc

    it's how you deal with them that makes you an infernalist or not, but even the Inquisition doesn't go very deep into the thing alot of the time,
    so you might get accused of infernalism for just talking to a demon,
    or for just practicing blood magic
    unless you have nice back-up
    This was in response to CTPhilips saying they hunt demons. And to be fair sometimes they do hunt demons, the conquest of Mexico centuries ago involved hunting some demons. But I know what you mean.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bluecho
    replied
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post

    No, six hours is the dark period, plus the twilight and dusk periods.

    Otherwise, I agree and I've done it the same way as you. That even indirect sunlight burns always sounded like bs to me. Again, I'd even make it easier to stay up and act during the day, to give a little more room for crossover troupes and to make the existence of vampries without ghouls believable.
    Personally, I just like the idea of the PCs being caught out at sunrise, and having to physically outrun the sun to get to safety, the line of daylight creeping across the ground as a moving field of death. Can't really do that, if your vampires were burning even with the pre-dawn light.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post

    Otherwise, I agree and I've done it the same way as you. That even indirect sunlight burns always sounded like bs to me.
    The way I would explain that is that even if you're in the shadows, simply looking at a sunbeam would require the sunlight to be absorbed through your eyes in order for you to even perceive it's existence. So you're still technically being hit with sunlight, just a very diminished amount of it.

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  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

    They are insanely harsh, especially when you consider that there is grey like in the sky an hour before sunrise and an hour after sunset. So that six hours? You've actually got four, that's if you are willing to cut it insanely close night after night. I just run it the way most vampire movies run it: only direct sunlight burns. The standard rules where even indirect sunlight burns is just insane. It's simply not viable.
    No, six hours is the dark period, plus the twilight and dusk periods.

    Otherwise, I agree and I've done it the same way as you. That even indirect sunlight burns always sounded like bs to me. Again, I'd even make it easier to stay up and act during the day, to give a little more room for crossover troupes and to make the existence of vampries without ghouls believable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    Vicissitude isn't the issue -
    Koldun deal with the demons of the land. Different to Fallen Angel-Demons. But they also bargain power out of them...
    Abyss Mysticism - Even the rest of the Lasombra don't trust what they're communing with, they just keep them on side because it's an asset better in the clan's power than against it.
    *And the Lasombra tend to treat any decision as the right decision until it backfires. Then it was always the wrong decision.

    So their stance is "don't traffic with demons... unless it's convenient to do so... then the entire clan is expected to follow suit!"

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    They hunt demons when not selling out to demons and ignoring it due to politics.
    they don't hunt demons, they hunt infernalists (big difference)
    going after the demon is a last resort scenario
    and, ironically, the Inquisition has made the Sabbat pretty bad and going against demons, until after the Tremere antis got nuked

    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    Vicissitude isn't the issue -
    Koldun deal with the demons of the land. Different to Fallen Angel-Demons. But they also bargain power out of them...
    Abyss Mysticism - Even the rest of the Lasombra don't trust what they're communing with, they just keep them on side because it's an asset better in the clan's power than against it.
    *And the Lasombra tend to treat any decision as the right decision until it backfires. Then it was always the wrong decision.
    demons by Inquisition (and my most vampire) standards, are anything from fallen, spirits, shades etc

    it's how you deal with them that makes you an infernalist or not, but even the Inquisition doesn't go very deep into the thing alot of the time,
    so you might get accused of infernalism for just talking to a demon,
    or for just practicing blood magic
    unless you have nice back-up

    Leave a comment:


  • CajunKhan
    replied
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post

    A very good assesment of the thoguths I'm largely holding too.

    One thing I want to add to the time restraint thing: Over here, nightime, when there's really no sun, lasts only 6-ish hours during summer months. That would be a real bummer, being only active for 6 hours a day, with some of that must be spent on hunting and traveling. Double sucks that hunting would be the easiest during those months and the nightlife the most abundant, so even if I'd be able to travel to another location, I'd miss out on the best part.

    Of course, it depends on how harsh the being up during the day rules and being damaged by sunlight stuff are? In VtM, both are pretty harsh, I'd say even excessively so. If I'd writing a game, I would make it a tad more forgiving, if not for other reason, then for the very thing above and for crossover reasons.
    They are insanely harsh, especially when you consider that there is grey like in the sky an hour before sunrise and an hour after sunset. So that six hours? You've actually got four, that's if you are willing to cut it insanely close night after night. I just run it the way most vampire movies run it: only direct sunlight burns. The standard rules where even indirect sunlight burns is just insane. It's simply not viable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    Sabbat forbids bargaining with demons...

    "So what about Vicissitude, then?"

    "That's not confirmed one way or the other, shut up!"
    Vicissitude isn't the issue -
    Koldun deal with the demons of the land. Different to Fallen Angel-Demons. But they also bargain power out of them...
    Abyss Mysticism - Even the rest of the Lasombra don't trust what they're communing with, they just keep them on side because it's an asset better in the clan's power than against it.
    *And the Lasombra tend to treat any decision as the right decision until it backfires. Then it was always the wrong decision.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    They hunt demons when not selling out to demons and ignoring it due to politics.

    Sabbat forbids bargaining with demons...

    "So what about Vicissitude, then?"

    "That's not confirmed one way or the other, shut up!"

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    They hunt demons when not selling out to demons and ignoring it due to politics.
    AKA the same as Werewolves.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    More Time You likely live longer, yes. You no longer have 24 hours in a day, however. You have twelve-ish. How ever much you think you've extended your life cut it in half. Also, some activities are nearly impossible to pursue without daylight.
    There's one other downside there, other vampires. It's maybe not one of the main themes of the game, but every so often the books or characters mention that vampire society itself tends to push vampires into wasting their time fighting each other. Being allowed to do what you want is the result of being powerful, but being powerful generally means spending all your time obsessing about power.

    That said, how different that is from normal human existence is an open question.

    Leave a comment:

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