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Attacking "Ephemeral" beings

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  • Attacking "Ephemeral" beings

    So, I have my own interpretation of how to deal with the immaterial world. In my opinion you simply cannot attack an immaterial spirit/being with your normal physical attacks, such as blades, claws and so on. The thing is there's a ritual in the v20 Rites of Blood called "Blade of smoke and shadows" that essentially states it's made to allow assamite warriors to deal with spirts, demons and ephemeral beings while they are in our world.

    So the first question is, do you guys think such a ritual should be able to affect a spirit/demon that used the "dematerialize" charm? Another question is, one of the players in my group is a garou and he argued that as garous are in part spiritual beings, their claws should be able to affect spirits and cainites in mist form or tenebrous avatar of Obtenebration for the matter. I said that it's not so because their claws are physical in any way and those forms or charms make the user immune to physycal attacks, but the player (who made a very op combat machine garou type) is somewhat stubborn and thinks I'm being unfair with him by not allowing him to physically attack these kinds of targets. So what is your opinion on the matter?

  • #2
    As far as I can tell by the rules I would answer your questions as follows:

    1) The ritual definitely would work on spirits that have used dematerialize that is literally the whole point of the ritual to affect dematerialized spirits what would make you think it would not work?

    2) Them being part spiritual beings does not make their attacks spirit attacks. That said Tenebrous Avatar and Mist Form have different rules. Any aggravated damage can harm mist form creatures so he would indeed be able to hurt a Protean user with his claws as they do aggravated damage. Tenebrous Avatar however makes you immune to all physical damage with no exemption for aggravated damage so the Obtenebration user would be immune to his claws. They can only be damaged by sunlight or fire, not physical attacks not even magically enhanced physical attacks. I personally would allows the ritual user to attack either Mist form or Tenebrous form however that falls under GM call I think I do not know that it works for sure under a strict reading of the rules.

    Note that I made these calls using the Dark Ages v20 rules the reason I chose that ruleset is that I believe the ritual Blade of Smoke and Shadows is a Dark Ages Vampire v20 ruleset ritual and thus it seemed the most applicable ruleset. If you are doing different rules my answers may not apply,
    Last edited by Necroscope0; 05-27-2019, 12:24 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Necroscope0 View Post
      As far as I can tell by the rules I would answer your questions as follows:

      1) The ritual definitely would work on spirits that have used dematerialize that is literally the whole point of the ritual to affect dematerialized spirits why would you think it would not work?

      2) Them being part spiritual beings does not make their attacks spirit attacks. That said Tenebrous Avatar and Mist Form have different rules. Any aggravated damage can harm mist form creatures so he would indeed be able to hurt a Protean user with his claws as they do aggravated damage. Tenebrous Avatar however makes you immune to all physical damage with no exemption for aggravated damage so the Obtenebration user would be immune to his claws. They can only be damaged by sunlight or fire, not physical attacks not even magically enhanced physical attacks. I personally would allows the ritual user to attack either Mist form or Tenebrous form however that falls under GM call I think I do not know that it works for sure under a strict reading of the rules.

      Note that I made these calls using the Dark Ages v20 rules the reason I chose that ruleset is that I believe the ritual Blade of Smoke and Shadows is a Dark Ages Vampire v20 ruleset ritual and thus it seemed the most applicable ruleset. If you are doing different rules my answers may not apply,

      1) I didn't say I think it doesn't, just asked for interpretations as dematerialize basically for all intents and purpuses makes the spirit "cease to exist" in the world when used. Or at least that's the description, so although I have ruled that the ritual does allow the user to affect a dematerialized spirit it does leave room for discussion based on interpretation. The ritual has many uses in any case, as it allows you to attack a spirit possessing a body without hurting the host etc.

      2) Now I've just read that in the v20 Dark Ages it states that Mist Form can be harmed by aggravated attacks, in any case I don't like this interpretation at all as I can see little sense in someone "hurting" a mist with his teeth and claws etc as one of the main points of the power is that to be safe from physycal harm. Now talking about the ritual Blade of smoke and mirrors, I agree that allowing it to cause damage to mist form and tenebrous avatar makes perfect sense as by the text of the ritual in itself makes it clear that the use of the ritual is exactly to deal with "ephemeral" forms that normal attacks would not.

      In any case, thank you very much for sharing your point of view with me. I really enjoy discussing through game concepts with other people even when people have different opinions from mine. Many times such discussions allows me to look at things in a different light. So, even after more than 2 decades of storytelling experience I'm always open to different points of view and frequently change my mind after reading a good argument.

      Cheers!

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      • #4
        Yeah I really love some of the changes DAv20 made, like the physical disciplines are so much better but then I really hate some of changes made too, like the changes to Protean making it weaker and changes to make obtenebration nearly invincible in tenebrous and un-counterable shroud of darkness that does not care if you have protean or auspex because you can not avoid that darkness no matter what just... because.... stuff like that really annoyed me. Even the Protean 6 or 7 Flesh of marble was made weak in that same way and that is supposed to be elder level. Ugh. I think someone just hated gangrel who wrote the protean rules. Like you said mist form is supposed to make you immune to physical damage just like claws and fangs. Really dumb to make it vulnerable there., I tried to talk my GM into making it how it should be but he wants rules as written for some god awful reason even when it is terrible so I guess instead i will just be glad I am playing an Assamite Sorcerer and not a Gangrel in this chronicle.

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