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  • #16
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    For me, it was the idea that the World of Darkness in the face of supernatural evil faces it not with good but apathy and greed.

    In other words that humanity's lack of care about the horror it finds is more likely to shut it down than any sinister plot.

    I can understand if this doesn't exactly pop for some gamers.

    And thus we see yet another example of the Technocracy being short sighted morons.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


      And thus we see yet another example of the Technocracy being short sighted morons.
      Mind you, the Technocracy shutting down the SI after running it to cull the vampire population to more managable levels is also possible.

      Originally posted by Sagacious Gamer View Post
      Working with the SI isn't an option that players are going to have.
      If they don't care about going after all vampires but only those that fill their spreadsheets and bottom line, why not?

      Then again, I'm going for the belief that the World of Darkness isn't our world + vampires but our world with the banality of evil dialed up plus monsters.

      An SI agent will gladly let a vampire feed on children if he can provide him names of Thin Bloods eating animals as long as it gets him a certificate of appreciation for killing more Blankbodies.

      But yes, I can see the fanatics as a major issue. I just don't see all SI agents as fanatics. Some will be corrupt, some will be fanatics, some will be racist genocidal psychopaths, and some will be just doing their job.
      Last edited by CTPhipps; 05-30-2019, 02:06 PM.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #18
        Expanding upon my previous idea of the Nosferatu hacking the SI's network, I like to imagine that in order to repair their public reputation, they share the information they stole freely with the other clans. In order to better coordinate their defensive efforts.

        The rest of Shrecknet would still be off limits to them, however. But as far as anybody else knows, that's all been deleted with the first security breach.

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        • #19
          I am not using the SI, or any other V5 metaplot elements, in my chronicles, but I have always tried to have the Society of Leopold and other vampire hunters be a legitimate threat as I believe the Masquerade is an important design element in the game. So I've always had them be more knowledgeable and effective than what the setting normally described. So it is probably closer to what the SI is supposed to be rather than in the previous editions of the game. While the SAD and other government agencies existed, there were always individuals who knew much more than that, but they operated more on a Delta Green style level because they didn't want to risk their activities being exposed and stopped by those elements in the government who were effectively controlled by the supernatural.

          My recommendation would just be that that the SI eliminates all of the low hanging threats. That in turn made the rest of the vampires be much, much better at enforcing the Masquerade. (This means much more changes for the Sabbat (and a lesser extent the Anarchs) than the Camarilla since the Camarilla always emphasized the Masquerade much more than anyone else. So the SI winds down not because it has run out of money, or is subverted, but because all the low hanging fruit is gone, and they have to work much, much harder to get the others.

          This way the SI remains a threat, but does not have to be prominent in the setting. You only need to do it if the PCs screw around too much. And you can utilize background elements to show the SI is still dangerous - if the Sabbat is too obvious, or if the Anarchs are too dumb, they get turned to ashes. But if the PCs are smart and respect the setting, they're fine.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            But yes, I can see the fanatics as a major issue. I just don't see all SI agents as fanatics. Some will be corrupt, some will be fanatics, some will be racist genocidal psychopaths, and some will be just doing their job.
            On this, I agree.

            Yes, there are religious fanatics teaming up with government fanatics. But the people in charge of those government fanatics - the career intelligence officers and directors - are not fanatics, generally. Save, perhaps, in fanaticism towards maintaining the prominence of their governments (not all governments, their governments) and the status quo that profits it. They are the ones with the power in this scenario. The power to allocate resources, give orders, grant (or revoke) security clearance, and to fire people.

            It's THESE people that would need to be convinced to dial back the SI, not the fanatics. Fanatics tend not to remain in power for very long, especially if their presence starts making trouble for the folks upstairs.

            Such individuals see the "bigger picture", often to the detriment of their understanding of matters on the ground. They play spy games on a global scale. It's that scale they work towards. If they think that the Second Inquisition prosecuting a genocidal war against vampires is simply not in the interests of their country, they will pull back. Deliberately pursue a less ethical stance, for the sake of maintaining a status quo that favors their side. It's why government agencies have a habit of supporting regimes, insurgents, and crime syndicates. It's why the drug cartels are still around.

            Note I kept talking about how these people favor their own side. I don't mean "hunters versus monsters". I mean "nations versus nations". Make no mistake: none of the three letter agencies making up the SI trust each other. Not completely. Especially not across divides of espionage. American SI agents have standing orders to keep eyes on their Russian and Chinese counterparts, who in turn have similar orders. And everyone is watching their allies in the Society of Leopold, wondering who, if anyone, is pulling their strings. Or simply because religious fanatics are...well, religious fanatics. They present a danger unto themselves.

            The Second Inquisition is not and never was a united, solid edifice of anti-vampire power. They're a bunch of agencies with their own agendas, priorities, and limitations. All so concerned about making sure no pertinent information leaks, either to their erstwhile allies, the general public, or their undead enemies. No one acts incautiously, lest the whole matter explode in their faces. This alliance of convenience is fragile, and subject to change, per the wishes of paranoid and pragmatic higher ups.

            It's unbelievable they managed to accomplish all they have thus far. (And personally, I agree with the idea that they only took down the Vienna Chantry with inside help).


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            • #21
              The idea that vampires are better organized this time around is also similar to another topic discussed around these forums regarding how the Tremere began to lose their monopoly on blood magic. Simply put, nobody really knew what the Tremere were capable of when they first entered the scene. Cut to a thousand years later, and the other clans have enough experience dealing with them to make some educated guesses.

              Vampires didn't take mortals seriously until the First Inquisition happened, but now they know exactly what kind of shit this can lead to if they aren't careful. So instead of being at each other's throats in the wake of a Second Inquisition, they decide to pool their resources and work together for mutual survival. They can go back to stabbing each other in the heart once they don't have to worry about armored S.W.A.T teams kicking down their doors in the middle of the day.
              Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-30-2019, 04:07 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                It's unbelievable they managed to accomplish all they have thus far. (And personally, I agree with the idea that they only took down the Vienna Chantry with inside help).
                That is the thing though, they DID wipe out London AND Vienna. In a recent poll i made by my players the fact that the 2nd Inquisition seemed incredible strong meta story wise came up as well and it is incredible difficult for me to do balance their capabilities.

                Also, these agencies would never allow a threat like the kindred survive in their own country. It does not matter if they are fanatics or not, they would go after them hard. Blankbodies do not have citizen rights, something even the lowest human criminals do have. They are complete fair game.


                This is me, just forgot my PW and changed my email
                http://forum.theonyxpath.com/member/8249-crytash

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Crytash2 View Post

                  That is the thing though, they DID wipe out London AND Vienna. In a recent poll i made by my players the fact that the 2nd Inquisition seemed incredible strong meta story wise came up as well and it is incredible difficult for me to do balance their capabilities.

                  Also, these agencies would never allow a threat like the kindred survive in their own country. It does not matter if they are fanatics or not, they would go after them hard. Blankbodies do not have citizen rights, something even the lowest human criminals do have. They are complete fair game.
                  That is partially why I went with, "We have run out of resources."

                  Because it can explain their incredibly strong opening and then why, in the subsequent years, their effectiveness took a dramatic drop.

                  London was purged.

                  So was Vienna.

                  Then what?


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Crytash2 View Post
                    Well first of we should talk about the different possibilities:
                    Another possibility is some kind of plot device, like a blood magic ritual of the highest order that makes huge swaths of 2IQ agents forget everything they knew about vampires, while simultaneously having the Nosferatu delete and destroy evidence. The few that remain will branded as crazy again, which is def. Something funny to play around with, especially if you let your group "hunt" for super rare ingredients that the blood mages will need.

                    It is imho all better than just magically say "Hey, those blankbodys are not dangerous, we might be highly trained, but we will sleep at the wheel again", because the threat of a kindred society is just way too high.
                    There is a Tremere ritual used o Chantries that makes paperwork about the subject disappear (I can't remember the name) It's generally so the Chantry can't be tracked using mudane means, chasing up water bills and the like, with the extra bonus, no bills get sent or are needed to be paid either [Sorry I can't remember the name of the Ritual]

                    Ramp that one up in a giant ritual - all evidence of Vampires just goes missing or suddenly doesn't exist. Tapes with them on - Gone. Photos, documents. Everything that physically exists, just leaving their memories intact.
                    Hopefully that scares them off, or changes the way they have to operate, so that it becomes more like small Cells operating (Which would be easier to avoid or deal with in general)

                    ***However***
                    It's terrible writing to introduce an element like this for it to fade out or disappear so quickly. They're planning a book around it, so it's going to be a V5 amped up version of Hunters, expected to be present in most chronicles rather than the optional way hunters were offered. [In fact, with the way Paradox is managing things, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a new clan or some other critical thing to help round out the setting, making it a must-buy instead of optional content]


                    Originally posted by Crytash2 View Post
                    Also, these agencies would never allow a threat like the kindred survive in their own country. It does not matter if they are fanatics or not, they would go after them hard. Blankbodies do not have citizen rights, something even the lowest human criminals do have. They are complete fair game.
                    These agencies that are known to establish fascist regime to overthrow democratically elected governments that are against their own countries' interests?
                    If it's purely mortal, based on reality, the heads of these organisations will use any "assets" that furthers their cause, vampires sent in to desabilize governments or as Secret police that can Obfuscate and Dominate people in to changing testimony?


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                      ***However***
                      It's terrible writing to introduce an element like this for it to fade out or disappear so quickly. They're planning a book around it, so it's going to be a V5 amped up version of Hunters, expected to be present in most chronicles rather than the optional way hunters were offered. [In fact, with the way Paradox is managing things, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a new clan or some other critical thing to help round out the setting, making it a must-buy instead of optional content]

                      Not really. The book would only be a must-buy if you plan to include the SI into your chronicle with a more significant presence. If the ST wants them to be on their last legs, then purchasing a book centered around their successful operations would be a waste of money.

                      I do like the idea of expanding the ritual to purge all knowledge of vampire's existence from the world's collective evidence lockers. And in typical kindred fashion, I'm sure the Tremere would not even hesitate to spread the word of their involvement in conducting the ritual, in an effort to portray themselves as the saviors of all vampire kind! They did it before with the Banu Haqim, and they'd do it again with the Second Inquisition. Thus reminding kindred everywhere why it is a good idea to keep the Tremere around, as opposed to wiping them out for age old grudges.

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                      • #26
                        Generally I see the downfall of the Second Inquisition coming from a number of different factors, some of which have been mentioned here already.

                        The Second Inquisition
                        The first issue is the Second Inquisition itself. Being a top secret organization is hard enough but add in multi-national and religious elements to the mix and you have a conglomerate that should not stand the test of time.

                        As national interests and desires change over time the ability to easily work together will be tested. In the same way economic issues can force funds that were originally unquestioned to be investigated. The Second Inquisition may not be discovered in such circumstances but the money and materiel they once relied on may not be as forthcoming. That's before you touch on the interest of what happens if some of the governments involved take a more hostile stance against each other. Inter-organization efforts that were green lit without question are shut down and agents reassigned. There's also the possibility of agents being given secret orders regarding those in the service to other nations. After all if these blankbodies are everywhere then why can't they be found and moved against in areas amenable to national interests? Just as the SI hides its actions through counter-terrorism and similar efforts it would not be as difficult to use the SI to target a particular foe, just set up the signs of activity.

                        Also unless there is further information in the Camarilla and Anarch books it would seem that SI's efforts consist of western agencies under Vatican authority. What happens when the inevitable question of pressing east comes up. Russian and Chinese elements alone are going to have significant issues with allowing low-oversight military activities, let alone strikes, anywhere near their territories. Once they get wind of the SI they'll begin investigating and depending on how well SI covered its tracks they may only find the implications of what looks like a joint nation strike force that acts with deadly impunity.

                        Then there's the question of vitae. Any study will reveal that it can cure afflictions, enhance strength, accelerate healing, stop aging, and grant a number of other seemingly magical effects. While the fanatics aren't going to consider it beyond destroy on sight, there will be many higher ups who are going to try and figure out how to remove, reduce, or control its addictive properties. Obviously the nation would be safer if its soldiers were amplified beyond the capabilities of their enemies. Then there's the paranoia of even ethical agents wondering about the others with the same information. Essentially take the worries and concerns over bio-weapons and add the fact that its basically magic.

                        The Cainites
                        Vampires were caught off guard by the SI. However that will not last forever. Already they are adapting the Mask Background and Loresheets like the First Inquisition and Ambrus Maropis speak to this. Eventually the low-hanging fruit is gone and the remainder are now aware of the threat.

                        Once aware of the threat there are a great many things Cainites can do to combat the SI. Focusing on increasing distrust and antipathy between nations, inflaming rivalries and jurisdictions of enforcement agencies, setting up targets to be taken out, and ironically stoking religious fervor. Fomenting discord between the nations is discussed above. Inter-agency conflict works basically in the same way, that by having even a few agents press that something is their jurisdiction or turf is enough to start causing trouble and attention. Draw enough attention and the SI has to back off or risk the wrong agents (either their own dupes or their enemies) discovering too much.

                        Since the SI is looking for signs that someone is compromised by a vampire, clever vampires can give them just that and end up causing the SI to remove someone they shouldn't have. Maybe the SI hits someone who one of those nations had other interests in keeping around and you have different secret orgs working against each other. Even just setting up the operation to be leaked could be enough to hurt the SI. If they hit a prominent enough person by accident, say an important donor in a key election, and there might be lawsuits and the SI by the way they've done business set up the need for secrecy like their foes.

                        There are a number of Discipline powers when properly applied could make misery for SI agents. Possessing the right person could completely upend or cancel an operation, Terminal Decree to have a soldier set off a C4 charge while in the middle of their companions, Star Magnetism on a screen just as agents walk into a room, so forth and so on. As losses and failures outstrip successes there will come a point where the numbers will speak over the fanatics. Discussions and debate will be had over how much effect they really had and whether the losses they've incurred by riling this threat was worth it when it had been quiet for ages. To say nothing of attrition among those who grow weary of such fighting, eventually some SI agents are going to burn out whether through too many dead or worse having to eliminate or find out a loved one was eliminated.

                        Other Supernaturals
                        I'm not going to go too in depth because we don't have information on exactly how the other groups will change in their "V5" editions. In general their greatest advantage should be surprise since the SI is less likely to have as much information on them and they certainly haven't been giving their less informed agents anything. There's also the risk of forcing groups that would normally not work together into an uneasy truce.
                        • Technocracy - While they want to stop Reality Deviants, revealing the supernatural to the larger world runs counter to their purposes. If the SI ever tries to go public the Technocracy should be there to stop them.
                        • Traditions - At first the Traditions will probably take some solace in less vampires. The Chakravanti/Euthanatoi will be pleased they've returned to the Wheel, the Choristers will praise the destruction of evil, the Hermetics will be pleased to see the end of many Tremere rogues. While the SI has been very competent at only hitting vampires (as far as we know) so far, magical mental compulsion looks a lot like Dominate and Hermetic magic is going to look alot like Thaumaturgy. A few too many mix ups and the SI may soon be seen as doing more harm than good. Then there's the possibility the SI could decide that witches and warlocks are as much of a threat as vampires...
                        • Garou - They'll be happy to see the leeches go. However just like with Tradition mages, they can look alot like a vampire to someone with just a bit of lacking knowledge. In the same way the SI could declare the werewolves just as much a threat.
                        • Wraiths - When we know more about the Hecata we'll probably find out more how the Wraiths can be of aid to the vampires. Insubstantial spies and ephemeral agents could be the key to breaking SI security, they're still looking for cold bodies after all. Unless they come up with another macguffin technology the SI should have a very difficult to nigh impossible time interacting with a Wraith across the Shroud, while the Wraith should have an easier one.
                        • Changeling - A person talking about fighting strange creatures for a count or other lord? Could easily sound like the talk of a ghoul. SI agents have to sleep and Changelings can mess with dreams...
                        • Wan Kuei/KJ/Kindred of the East - Assuming they exist their biggest advantage is that Yang aspected vampires break many of the 'rules' that the SI knows about vampires. Add to that the previous discussions of how China might react to a western secret military organization and you have a recipe for what was formerly an invasion in the west starting to look like reinforcements. Sure their alliance wouldn't last, but then again neither should SI and look at everything they pulled off.
                        • Mummies - Given their especially hard to permanently kill state and the SI squad that raises the ire of one (say by attacking what they think is a vampiric cult) they'll have a significantly more implacable foe that they're used to.
                        • Demons - If there was any group that might put vampires on the backburner this would be it. At least for the fanatics. You could see splintering over those who would rather hunt truer demons from hell and more pragmatic agents interested in finishing the current threat.

                        Faith
                        Faith is a powerful tool in the SI's arsenal but it could also become one of their greatest banes. As they press beyond the western world the fact that the Vatican backs them will become more and more problematic. Even if the Gehenna Crusade weren't making the Middle East a no fly zone we know little about, it would still be terrible optics if a bunch of inquisitors were found killing people there. Accusations of new crusades and declarations of war could easily fly as religious tension flares.

                        The same could be said for the different Christian factions. With possible arguments of a push for a new Papal hegemony the Anglicans, Protestants, Orthodox, and the myriad of other groups could all turn on what is easily seen as a religious hit squad. Especially if the fanatics start pushing beyond what is currently seen as vampiric influence. They could also begin the blame game where different groups each argue that the heresy of another is why vampires are such a problem. Soon the same faith that once held them together and gave them purpose becomes fault lines running through their group.

                        The Big Reveal
                        There's always the question of what actually happens when the existence of vampires is revealed to the world at large. If the SI isn't careful it could quickly turn into a PR nightmare. All their secret hits and suspect methods and funding could see the light of day. Lawsuits from the family, friends, loved ones, and organizations affiliated with those killed will quickly stress the operational leeway and funding they have.

                        The properties of vitae again rears its head. When the veil goes down a smart vampire society will push the benefits of vitae to the public. Got a relative with cancer, aids, or some other terminal illness? Vitae can help them with 100% effectiveness. Are you a wealthy individual at the end of their life, do you wish you had more time with your family and friends? Let vitae help. Is your ER packed to the brim, do you have to turn away people who desperately need your help, did a natural disaster shut down vital health infrastructure? Vitae can close those wounds and save those lives. Suddenly the Tremere's longer blood bond requirement could become a key advantage. Is vitae addictive? Sure it is but so are opiates and vitae fixes a hell of a lot more.

                        Then there's the embrace itself. Take all the benefits of vitae and make it permanent with drawbacks. But humanity has had a lot of experience dealing with chronic conditions and eating restrictions. Diabetes, gluten/peanut/other food allergies and the like have all been monetized. Take the same kind of concept as True Blood and Grubhub becomes Bloodhub, a quick pleasure filled bite and you have quick cash. It's not like the Camarilla and Anarchs weren't already policing themselves over mortal deaths. Like with vitae above the wealthy could suddenly look to gain the embrace to live forever and could have the cash to make a lobby in its favor. Sure there would need to be laws but tax money in perpetuity? Sounds like the kind of thing that could balance a budget.

                        There could easily be a public outcry led by the terminally ill and those whose loved ones' only crime was being embraced and needing to drink blood. They may never have even killed a mortal but SI wouldn't care. Telling someone that their grandma has to die because what could save her is "evil because god said so" is going to be a tough sell. With organizational inquiry, funding cuts and lawsuits, and public hew and cry over a fanatical death squad could quickly make an end to the SI and usher in a new era of human-vampire cooperation (with the wealthy and powerful of both groups laughing gleefully for eternity over their new blood bound empire).
                        Last edited by Cynic01; 05-30-2019, 11:00 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                          That is partially why I went with, "We have run out of resources."

                          Because it can explain their incredibly strong opening and then why, in the subsequent years, their effectiveness took a dramatic drop.

                          London was purged.

                          So was Vienna.

                          Then what?
                          Not to mention, how effective was it REALLY in the grand scheme of things?

                          Yes, a big blankbody "hive" was destroyed. As far as the SI knows. And one major city was made blankbody free. Again, as far as the SI knows.

                          Did either Vienna or London STAY vampire-free? Maybe the V5 books say otherwise, but I would guess "hell no".

                          Sure, many vampires would get spooked and stay far away from these places. But other vampires - those desperate, ambitious, or stubborn enough - wouldn't hesitate to run in, to get in on the ground floor of newly vacated domains (which, incidentally, are of huge cultural importance). Other vampires would go (or be sent by higher ups) just to prevent other vampires from grabbing that spot. If Nature abhors a vacuum, so does the Jyhad.

                          Unlike the first time, furthermore, the new vampires in town know the Inquisition is watching, and will double and triple their efforts to carve out positions while remaining less noticeable. The old vampires were around for centuries, and had grown complacent in their positions. The new vampires - who are doggedly determined to gain power, influence, or just a place to survive - know how fragile their positions can be, and will work to shore them up.

                          In essence, the SI got some token wins, but also massively tipped their hands. The survivors of this campaign will be the ones who are smart, tenacious, and paranoid. Traits they can pass on to their progeny, because oh yeah vampires replenish their numbers like undead rabbits.

                          When they realize this, how confident will the SI be in their ability to prosecute their war? Will they think their present course of aggression is tenable in the future? Or will they become discouraged, seeing that in a few short years London and Vienna become arguably even more infested? Will they see the collateral damage arising from loads of new vampires fighting over old power blocs, and think their prior "win" was worth it? Or will they consider that trying to burn the vampires out is not too dissimilar to grasping water? They just slip through the grasp and multiply again.

                          Can they afford to keep doing this forever, at the rate they're going? Or are they setting themselves up to fall into a war of attrition? Because if it's a attrition - a war of time - they are at a sore disadvantage. Something has to change.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                            Not really. The book would only be a must-buy if you plan to include the SI into your chronicle with a more significant presence. If the ST wants them to be on their last legs, then purchasing a book centered around their successful operations would be a waste of money.

                            I do like the idea of expanding the ritual to purge all knowledge of vampire's existence from the world's collective evidence lockers. And in typical kindred fashion, I'm sure the Tremere would not even hesitate to spread the word of their involvement in conducting the ritual, in an effort to portray themselves as the saviors of all vampire kind! They did it before with the Banu Haqim, and they'd do it again with the Second Inquisition. Thus reminding kindred everywhere why it is a good idea to keep the Tremere around, as opposed to wiping them out for age old grudges.
                            My point is that they'll probably do something like they did with Chicago, where they're trying to make it a must buy by putting in Lasombra and "Oblivion" in to the book.

                            If it was Onyx Path or Old White Wolf, I'd trust the book was just for it's named content, but Paradox have already shown their hand on their plans to sprinkle needful info into otherwise optional books

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                              My point is that they'll probably do something like they did with Chicago, where they're trying to make it a must buy by putting in Lasombra and "Oblivion" in to the book.

                              If it was Onyx Path or Old White Wolf, I'd trust the book was just for it's named content, but Paradox have already shown their hand on their plans to sprinkle needful info into otherwise optional books
                              Otherwise known as good business practices.

                              Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                              Not to mention, how effective was it REALLY in the grand scheme of things?

                              Yes, a big blankbody "hive" was destroyed. As far as the SI knows. And one major city was made blankbody free. Again, as far as the SI knows.

                              Did either Vienna or London STAY vampire-free? Maybe the V5 books say otherwise, but I would guess "hell no".

                              Sure, many vampires would get spooked and stay far away from these places. But other vampires - those desperate, ambitious, or stubborn enough - wouldn't hesitate to run in, to get in on the ground floor of newly vacated domains (which, incidentally, are of huge cultural importance). Other vampires would go (or be sent by higher ups) just to prevent other vampires from grabbing that spot. If Nature abhors a vacuum, so does the Jyhad.

                              Unlike the first time, furthermore, the new vampires in town know the Inquisition is watching, and will double and triple their efforts to carve out positions while remaining less noticeable. The old vampires were around for centuries, and had grown complacent in their positions. The new vampires - who are doggedly determined to gain power, influence, or just a place to survive - know how fragile their positions can be, and will work to shore them up.

                              In essence, the SI got some token wins, but also massively tipped their hands. The survivors of this campaign will be the ones who are smart, tenacious, and paranoid. Traits they can pass on to their progeny, because oh yeah vampires replenish their numbers like undead rabbits.

                              When they realize this, how confident will the SI be in their ability to prosecute their war? Will they think their present course of aggression is tenable in the future? Or will they become discouraged, seeing that in a few short years London and Vienna become arguably even more infested? Will they see the collateral damage arising from loads of new vampires fighting over old power blocs, and think their prior "win" was worth it? Or will they consider that trying to burn the vampires out is not too dissimilar to grasping water? They just slip through the grasp and multiply again.

                              Can they afford to keep doing this forever, at the rate they're going? Or are they setting themselves up to fall into a war of attrition? Because if it's a attrition - a war of time - they are at a sore disadvantage. Something has to change.
                              I would also suggest that the only reason London became a battle zone to the bitter end is because MIthras wanted it that way. When a bunch of Hunters begin the Purge of the undead in a city, if vampires know about it, they LEAVE.

                              They probably don't fight to the death unless they're Sabbat, stupid, or particularly nutty Anarchs.

                              Then they return when the heat is down.

                              Yes, everything is seen in CCTV cameras but unless all of them are equipped with heat sensors, that's not going to help and someone still has to go over every frame of every piece of footage.
                              Last edited by CTPhipps; 05-30-2019, 11:31 PM.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                Otherwise known as good business practices.



                                I would also suggest that the only reason London became a battle zone to the bitter end is because MIthras wanted it that way. When a bunch of Hunters begin the Purge of the undead in a city, if vampires know about it, they LEAVE.

                                They probably don't fight to the death unless they're Sabbat, stupid, or particularly nutty Anarchs.

                                Then they return when the heat is down.

                                Yes, everything is seen in CCTV cameras but unless all of them are equipped with heat sensors, that's not going to help and someone still has to go over every frame of every piece of footage.
                                Also, wouldn't the public start to take notice of increased surveillance? They will, if the vampires want them to. Money gets pumped into propaganda campaigns, lambasting the UK government for its violations of privacy. Turn the very weapon the SI uses into a public relations nightmare. It doesn't matter if the fears are unfounded. People can be made to believe truly irrational things (not that fears of a surveillance state, 1984-style are THAT irrational). Tie up municipal services in legal battles, so the matter of CCTV cameras gets dragged into court. It may not work, but it'll make the SI's job much harder when the apparatus of government and public opinion start working against them.

                                This is not even getting into how the technology itself can be subverted. High tech solutions - like hacking central servers or creating electronic interference - can act against cameras and dull their effectiveness. Meanwhile, there's always the low-tech solution of smashing or blocking cameras. A camera is useless if it can't see anything.

                                Both high and low tech solutions can be done directly by vampires, or through intermediaries (ghouldom, domination, blackmail, animal servitors, etc). Even the public can be made to attack surveillance technology, with the right PR campaign. Hackers on the Dark Web being challenged to subvert servers, while techno-anarchists work to break the systems outright. Street gangs and protest movements being convinced that smashing instruments of state and corporate surveillance is a good idea. Vampires could even buy the tech firm that sells cameras to the SI, allowing them to cram in flaws that knowledgeable Kindred can exploit.

                                All of these ideas can be implemented imperceptibly over time. Because Time is the one thing Kindred possess in abundance.


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