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How to end the Second Inquisition

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  • #76
    If it is so easy to deal with the inquisition then what's the point of the Masquerade?

    I think a lot of persons underestimate the power of the Inquisition.
    It wasn't just the Vienna and London. they annihilated the Sabbat in a few years time span at most, something the Camarilla wasn't able to do in centuries. Which is why the Lasombra are begging for the Camarilla's protection now.

    Also hundreds of vampires in the Camarilla died leading them to use drastic measure to save what was left by going back to middle age technological level and using the neonates as scapegoat to sate the SI wrath by kicking them out of the Cam.

    An organisation so powerful (and successful) will not die out so easily. And if it does they will be political impact in vampiric society. Elder will eventually come back and with no wolves on the street, the Camarilla will reassert itself (and the Sabbat as well when they're done eating elders in the ME)
    Last edited by Morbus; 06-02-2019, 07:13 AM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Morbus View Post
      If it is so easy to deal with the inquisition then what's the point of the Masquerade?
      I'm not sure I get your point?

      It's destroyed 10% to maybe half the vampires in the world.

      But it's going to eventually stop because the plot has to move on.

      I'm also not sure what you consider "easy." about this/


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Morbus View Post
        If it is so easy to deal with the inquisition then what's the point of the Masquerade?

        As I said, the reason why the first was so successful is because EVERYBODY knew about monsters, magic and the like. Before the implementation of the Masquerade, the Inquisition was full scale, open war upon monsters.

        But this time around, the Inquisition is being carried out in secret, behind the scenes. It's manipulating social media, and legal systems to keep everything under wraps.

        And this is a war in which the kindred are very, VERY adept in. They've been doing it for hundreds of years, and fighting against enemies who are significantly more powerful than kine on a nearly constant basis.

        If the Second Inquisition wants to play by their rules, they are going to get absolutely wrecked in the long run. Humanity's greatest advantage is their numbers, not their technology. Any sapient creature has the capacity to use that technology, and most of the vampires who weren't called off to The Beckoning are from the modern era.

        Even quotes from the rule book make a point of showcasing that vampires do not fear any individual group of mortals rising up to challenge them. They fear the idea of EVERY mortal rising up against them. A squad of 5 to 10 hunters isn't a threat, when you can move faster than bullets, and punch with the force of a speeding car. But if you have to face 1,000 hunters all at the same time, statistically a few of them are going to get in some lucky shots.
        Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-02-2019, 09:03 AM.

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        • #79
          The SI has already shown that they are pretty good at eradicating vampires by themselves. As shown by them eradicating the Sabbat and wrecking the Camarilla.

          In fact one of the main reason why they did not shatter the Masquerade completely (yet) is because they are winning and they know it. So they don't see the point in taking the risk of being slowed down by vampiric sympathizer when they already strong enough to clean house with what they got.

          I agree that the SI may decline eventually as did the original Inquisition but it's a process that will take decade to centuries except if a big Deus ex Machina is used like a few mentionned already.

          Altough I am not so certain considering that major organisations such as the Catholic Church are now completely aware of the existence of vampires and that intelligence agencies who busted vampires in the first place not only have huge database of evidence of the existence of blank bodies but also the technological means to distinguish them in the first place (that's how they shattered the Masquerade in the first place) and they are extending them everywhere they can.

          London for example is now a very dangerous place for a lick to live considering that almost every cctv cameras there can detect vampires if I remember the Camarilla book right.
          So not certain that will SI will ever go down as long as technology does not stop to progress in their favor.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Morbus View Post
            The SI has already shown that they are pretty good at eradicating vampires by themselves. As shown by them eradicating the Sabbat and wrecking the Camarilla.
            They wrecked the Tremere and smashed London.

            The Sabbat and Inquisition haven't fought.

            The Sabbat went to the Middle East and are basically Embracing ISIS and fighting Elders.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              I'm not sure I get your point?

              It's destroyed 10% to maybe half the vampires in the world.

              But it's going to eventually stop because the plot has to move on.

              I'm also not sure what you consider "easy." about this/

              Why should the plot move on ? This is the new status quo. SI is there to stay and vampires will have to learn to survive with this new threat.

              That's the whole V5 premise and frankly I don't see what's wrong here.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                They wrecked the Tremere and smashed London.

                The Sabbat and Inquisition haven't fought.

                The Sabbat went to the Middle East and are basically Embracing ISIS and fighting Elders.

                I'll have to reread the source material but I am pretty sure that it is mentionned that the SI eradicated the Sabbat from the Americas. Not every Sabbat went to the ME as evidenced by the Lasombra defection and those who stayed have to suffer the SI like everyone else.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Morbus View Post


                  I'll have to reread the source material but I am pretty sure that it is mentionned that the SI eradicated the Sabbat from the Americas. Not every Sabbat went to the ME as evidenced by the Lasombra defection and those who stayed have to suffer the SI like everyone else.
                  They really didn't, I'm pretty sure.

                  The Camarilla defeated the Sabbat in Mexico City and without their help.

                  Originally posted by Morbus View Post
                  Why should the plot move on ? This is the new status quo. SI is there to stay and vampires will have to learn to survive with this new threat.

                  That's the whole V5 premise and frankly I don't see what's wrong here.
                  Because either they'll gain momentum or lose it.

                  They've already been losing momentum since they haven't destroyed the vampires of any other major cities.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    Because either they'll gain momentum or lose it.

                    They've already been losing momentum since they haven't destroyed the vampires of any other major cities.
                    I agree with this. The nature of all-out-war is that, if it isn't ramping up, it's ramping down. It's very difficult to maintain a steady state of conflict, if you assume that both sides are doing everything they can to win (or at least to lose as little as possible).

                    The Camarilla-Sabbat conflict was always more a series of individual crusades, fought on a regional basis. Because the Sabbat is generally disorganized, and the Camarilla are reluctant to work together. The huge, sweeping offensive on the East coast of the US, for instance, was so notable because it saw such a united effort by many Sabbat forces, spread over a wide area. Most of the time, if a crusade stalls, it will soon result in entrenchment or one side being repelled. In either case, the turbulent nights of a full-blown crusade last only so long.

                    It's much the same way with the Vampire-Inquisition conflict. If the SI isn't in a position to keep purging cities, it means their progress is stalling. They won't stop being a threat, obviously, but they'll need to do something drastic to regain momentum.

                    Especially since the SI likely accomplished what they did because of long planning, intelligence gathering, exploiting weaknesses, and getting the drop on the Kindred. The last is the most important, and why the SI's progress will slow. They've exhausted the element of surprise. Vampires are aware they're being hunted. They're going to be far more careful. They're also going to realize the threat the SI poses, and work to formulate counter-offenses.

                    Prosecuting an extermination campaign against vampires could only be done with swift offenses in the opening nights of the war. Now, Kindred will dig in, and start fighting a guerrilla war. Unsurprisingly, a guerrilla war is not too favorable for the "occupying" side. Just ask American soldiers in Vietnam or the Middle East. Big wins are going to be harder to come by, now that the easiest targets are already dead and the rest are aware, entrenched, and pissed off. Vampires will make life HELL for the SI, which means government agents and higher ups will start getting discouraged. The SI, for all their talk of the vampires as existential threats, are not as motivated to win as the vampires, who fight for both survival and spite.

                    Vampires can get really nasty. They've had centuries of practice.


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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Morbus View Post


                      Why should the plot move on ? This is the new status quo. SI is there to stay and vampires will have to learn to survive with this new threat.

                      That's the whole V5 premise and frankly I don't see what's wrong here.

                      The first inquisition didn't stay. So why should the second?

                      And besides, we've already posted numerous explanations for justifying how and why it would fail.

                      I mean come on, the Nosferatu devoted their entire history towards building up the greatest counter intelligence network in vampire society. Are you seriously going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that one breach of their Schrecknet is going to decimate their whole operation? Mitnick spent weeks of constant work and fried three laptops before he finally broke into a minor database, and the Primogen showed up on his doorstep within the first hour!

                      No, the sewer rats have something going on that they haven't told the other clans about...


                      The Ventrue and Lasombra have always seized power wherever society decided to place it. You don't just say "well, the masquerade was breached. I guess we can ignore all the bribes, blood bonds, and years of hypnotic programming the two clans used to assert their dominance over mortal society!"


                      The Tremere also have a long and proud history of carrying out wide spread magical attacks on anybody who they saw as being too big of a threat. Entire clans have been crippled, or even outright destroyed because of their machinations.

                      The Second Inquisition is a threat, to be sure, but it was never intended to be the extinction level event for Masquerade. That particular role went to the Antedeluvians, and the End Times metaplot. But since Gehenna is now being treated as some sort of behind the scenes, slow decline into entropy sort of situation, the game has to over exaggerate the threat that a bunch of mortal institutions pose to creatures who have centuries worth of experience in the world of combat, politics, espionage and survival tactics!


                      If the V5 book was told from the perspective of the kindred themselves, then we might be right to worry about the Second Inquisition's movements. But since the book appears to be written from the point of view of the Inquisition itself, we have to take their perspective of the situation with a few handfuls of salt...


                      Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                      Especially since the SI likely accomplished what they did because of long planning, intelligence gathering, exploiting weaknesses, and getting the drop on the Kindred. The last is the most important, and why the SI's progress will slow. They've exhausted the element of surprise. Vampires are aware they're being hunted. They're going to be far more careful. They're also going to realize the threat the SI poses, and work to formulate counter-offenses.

                      I agree with this.

                      Second Inquisition: You'd better take us seriously, we destroyed the Tremere power base in Vienna, after all!

                      Me: Congratulations, you carried out a surprise attack on ONE clan, that was barely over 1,000 years old. There are 12 other clans out there, who are far older than the one you bombed, and they now know you're coming! Oh, also, you didn't kill all the Tremere. Best start praying as hard as you can, because I can guarantee you they won't take that lying down!
                      Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-02-2019, 08:50 PM.

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                      • #86
                        Honestly, I think it's also implied the Second Inquisition succeeded so greatly because the Elders were preoccupied with the Beckoning. And this is really sad, that the vast majority of the "big success" was actually the Society of Leopold rather than SEAL or Mossad teams.

                        Yes, the ACTUAL Inquisition was doing the heavy lifting. They just needed money, weapons, and some more bodies to back them up.

                        The SoL is probably the only group that will keep going like they always have.

                        And while it sounds a bit lame, "Who is paying for this and what do they think they're paying for?" is a question that I mean entirely seriously. Presumably there's Senate subcommittees on intelligence who are going to be asking what the level of operations they're doing are about and for what purpose. How much can the Inquisition expend for a vampire-free world as long as they're keeping the Masquerade up to avoid a global panic.

                        And the vampires just have to convince Senator Jones that he'll do better using that money for building a new LaCroix Corp Power Plant for an extra 10,000,000 in campaign funds.
                        Last edited by CTPhipps; 06-02-2019, 09:17 PM.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                          The idea that you should only sell books that players as well as Storytellers both feel obligated to buy.
                          It is certainly an option.
                          But, do you know what's better - Making things that people want to buy and increasing the entry cost for the (compete base rules of the) hobby prohibitively expensive, putting countless people off that could get in buying only one or two books.

                          Even Games Workshop (Now rebranded to "Warhammer" stores in many places now) has changed the rules and redesigned things with their games so people can play with a much lower outlay. they know that if they only get these people in spending around a hundred, then it's still a success. But having more players in at that level encourages others to get in as well, and they'll still have the core players that will spend their disposable income on their product anyway. It's grown the business, not shrunk it.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            The idea that you should only sell books that players as well as Storytellers both feel obligated to buy.

                            Obligated? I barely even remember the Lasombra exist most of the time. And their decision to split from the Sabbat and join the Camarilla at the first sign of trouble has absolutely destroyed the clan's public image for me... fucking hypocrites!

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                            • #89
                              The SI haven't broken the masquerade, so that's kinda shit for them.
                              I mean, I know the book goes on about "the masquerade is broken" except uh... not really?

                              The masquerade is that the public doesn't know about vampires. Since the SI haven't informed the public of this, they haven't broken masquerade. Which honestly should make them less of a threat. An assault helicopter and an army hunting you down should be absolutely fucking shit even for elders. A SWAT team with fancy gear and someone bugging your phone should be a lot less out of context problem for them.

                              And the book tries to play them up, maybe to try and make the game more street level or something, I dunno.

                              Other problems with the SI is well...

                              Normal mortals are kind of boring as an antagonist in an urban fantasy setting. Like I wanna visit a secret, magical world hidden underneath the surface of mundanity. I don't want to handle some middle aged jumped up fbi agents with no magical powers, no odd culture, and no fun history behind them. It's kinda boring.
                              Sofar, bit 1dimensional. With sabbat, I can think up a dozen ways to include them in a game off the cuff. With the SI uh... either they hunt vampires or they don't? Probably with a smattering of defections and mind control and such but all very obvious, formulaic and predictable. Would work better if they were less "the new big threat".
                              Most of their victories amount to informed abilities. They totally beat up the Camarilla and all the kindred cause they got like technology and fancy weapons and funding. Ok. I dunno man, I'm not entirely sold on it.

                              Also honestly they should just break the masquerade. If they are capable of convincing the masses that vampires exist (which supposedly they are) and they want to fight vampires, then breaking the masquerade should be like step 1.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                How cynical are you about hunters?

                                Is it, "I will never ever compromise with you, Vlad! Do your worst."

                                OR

                                "Can you, I dunno, just feed on Mexicans?"
                                With the exception of the fanatically driven zealots, I find it hard to believe that any institution would seriously decide to hunt monsters to the point of extinction. Not after getting a first hand look at the kind of ridiculous powers they can pull off. The monsters might be fewer in number, but they are proportionately just as deadly as a full sized force. And waging a full scale war on domestic soil is bound to result in heavy losses, maybe even a pyrrhic victory.

                                "Congratulations men, this year we successfully managed to kill 50 vampires!"

                                "Yeah, but we lost 300 men doing so!"

                                Training black ops soldiers isn't cheap!

                                I find it far more believable that after the momentum dies down, both sides would come to some sort of compromise, with the bulk of the SI choosing to go after monsters who cause the most amount of trouble. As for the rest of them, the monsters have managed their own self policing governments for a long time now, and it doesn't seem too ridiculous to let them keep doing so in the interest of maintaining a stabilized peace between them.

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