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V5: Grenades and Rocket Launchers

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  • Argonot
    started a topic V5: Grenades and Rocket Launchers

    V5: Grenades and Rocket Launchers

    Hi.

    How much damage would you say a grenade and a rocket would do in V5?

  • Thoth
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    Yeah its silly to say "what why would you need Grenades for a game about a Conspiracy of superhuman greedy wicked Vampires". Hell in my opinion the Tremere should have a lot of tricks to conjure and banish illegal weapons and explosives, and their biggest concern is to not have witnesses or leave forensic evidence. They probably have rituals that screw with the Forensics when using bullets or bombs or acid.
    I have to admit that I tend to come at this from a different point of view.

    If a coroner finds a body which has been torched by Lure of Flames, it sets off all sorts of red flags. The heat was too high for the fuel on hand and a lack of accelerant, not to mention it appears that only the body itself was burned and very little damage was done to the surroundings. Sure there is the wick effect with some immolation cases, but never when the target was awake or mobile. On the other hand if the CSI guys come in and find that some one doused a victim in gasoline and lit them up with a mag full of dragons breath rounds from a combat shotgun, the answers are fairly straight forward. Discipline use leaves some very inconvenient holes in the evidence.

    There have also been several instances in games I have run where the use of firearms was a bit of evidence misdirection on the part of rival vampires. When some one rolls up with military grade gear to kill a vampire, most cainites tend to think about hunters or surviving victims coming back for vengeance rather than assuming one of your rivals started shooting at you. Alternatively I have used a public "killing" to cripple a vampires plans. If a vampire influencer is shot in the head while attending a dinner or other public social function, unless they can dominate the entire crowd and control media uploads, they have to change identities and keep a low profile for a decade or more. A gun might not kill a vampire, but it can kill their plans.

    Now if you had a vampire who was using a signature weapon that can easily be traced and connected to various crime scenes over the decades or centuries, then yes you will want rituals and other techniques for removing evidence, but that should be something that most kindred learn early on to avoid doing.

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  • The Dreamweaver
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    Yeah its silly to say "what why would you need Grenades for a game about a Conspiracy of superhuman greedy wicked Vampires". Hell in my opinion the Tremere should have a lot of tricks to conjure and banish illegal weapons and explosives, and their biggest concern is to not have witnesses or leave forensic evidence. They probably have rituals that screw with the Forensics when using bullets or bombs or acid.
    CSI: Kindred.

    "Vell, it looks like we've..." Dramatically hides their face behind the cape. "Found our ghoul!" Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!

    Leave a comment:


  • Thoth
    replied
    Rockets and Grenades are both utility weapons which are defined by their payload. For instance a rocket with just high explosive will cause damage in an area and will easily destroy a car or part of a house. On the other hand if the rocket is fitted with an anti-armor shaped charge payload, the explosion will do very little damage to the surrounding area but will essentially produce a split second cutting torch that rips through tank armor. Any vampire hit by an anti-armor rocket directly is taking Aggravated damage. The same sorts of distinctions apply to grenades which have even more variety. Though I should point out that unless the person firing the rocket is using specific modern versions with back blast safety features, just firing the rocket inside an enclosed space will pulp everyone in the room regardless of where the rocket goes or hits.

    Using military grade weapons in a vampire game is less a worry about them defaulting to that in all situations and more about understanding the many nuanced problems that can arise from players going full action movie without understanding how the weapons actually function.

    I mean just using the shotgun example, how many STs make the vampires take the time to surgically remove all the buckshot their characters soak up in a given gun fight? A couple of enemies armed with AA12s or Saigas can utterly riddle a vampire head to toe with pellets. It might not be fatal to a kindred by good luck trying to enter any government building, airport, or even many high schools which have metal detectors.

    Besides when it comes to mil-spec weapons the one you really have to worry about is sniper rifles. Highly accurate, next to no collateral damage, and easily viable up to a mile away with a decent shooter or perhaps a remote firing station. Add in things like specialty ammunition and even greater shooting skill and things get very deadly in a hurry.

    Leave a comment:


  • Argonot
    replied
    Originally posted by elmerg View Post


    Man, you're letting your players use military-grade weaponry? Geez. Ultimately, you could adapt the grenade rules from the NWoD book Armory if you have it, they're somewhat sensible. But...why even let the players HAVE that stuff? Seriously.
    Yes. One of them is a black-market gun dealer. They''re ancillaes (not like you have to be one to have military weaponry anyway).

    Leave a comment:


  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Originally posted by MCN View Post
    That sounds like we're starting to get into white room scenarios. I don't feel that's best with moving, flexible targets that don't react the same way as solid matter to the concussive force. As well, there's the cinematic involved - what makes the best for the story, in a way that doesn't force you to come up with entirely new rule systems for it? I mainly picked +5 because it is stronger than a shotgun, and V5 seems to be a game that likes capping things out at 5 or 10. Given the weapon chart, I feel its best to consider weapons capping out at +5, given that the listed weapons only go up to +4. I can see +6 if we push it. Aiming much higher and we start risking the game's combat into all rocket tag, and minimizing the impact of banes and vampiric powers.

    Also? https://www.quora.com/What-happens-t...uncher-warhead The answer provided here is quite underwhelming.
    But did the inclusion of Shotguns risk the game's combat going all Shotguny? In a phone booth and some walks in and rassles you? Shotgun them? Fighting in a Club bathroom? Shotgun em? Riding on a carousel? Shotgun City!

    Leave a comment:


  • MCN
    replied
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

    Explosives are going to do a good deal more damage than shotguns even if the shotgun is loading slugs instead of shot. They're meant to tear apart sturdy metallic and ceramic constructions, after all; the human body pulps readily in the face of that kind of destructive power. It gets even worse if the blast is in an enclosed, sturdy location, like a tunnel; the force gets bounced and funneled back. What remains is typically so much chunky salsa.

    (Can you tell that Shadowrun was my first rpg?)
    That sounds like we're starting to get into white room scenarios. I don't feel that's best with moving, flexible targets that don't react the same way as solid matter to the concussive force. As well, there's the cinematic involved - what makes the best for the story, in a way that doesn't force you to come up with entirely new rule systems for it? I mainly picked +5 because it is stronger than a shotgun, and V5 seems to be a game that likes capping things out at 5 or 10. Given the weapon chart, I feel its best to consider weapons capping out at +5, given that the listed weapons only go up to +4. I can see +6 if we push it. Aiming much higher and we start risking the game's combat into all rocket tag, and minimizing the impact of banes and vampiric powers.

    Also? https://www.quora.com/What-happens-t...uncher-warhead The answer provided here is quite underwhelming.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by MCN View Post
    Well, you asked about grenades and rockets, which encompass a wide variety of explosives and power. Getting hit directly with a rocket launcher is going to put a very bad dent in anyone, vampire or not. A more traditional frag grenade will do less damage.

    That said, I find I have to disagree with LastCourier. V5's rule system doesn't really work with AoE effects like that - there's still contested rolls to consider. As well, a shotgun blast at close range only has a +4 damage modifier. I would suggest that a rocket gets a +5 modifier, in that case. Both should shred someone at point blank. Combine with successes on the attack roll, that should be enough damage to put down even someone with Stamina 5.
    Explosives are going to do a good deal more damage than shotguns even if the shotgun is loading slugs instead of shot. They're meant to tear apart sturdy metallic and ceramic constructions, after all; the human body pulps readily in the face of that kind of destructive power. It gets even worse if the blast is in an enclosed, sturdy location, like a tunnel; the force gets bounced and funneled back. What remains is typically so much chunky salsa.

    (Can you tell that Shadowrun was my first rpg?)

    Leave a comment:


  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Yeah its silly to say "what why would you need Grenades for a game about a Conspiracy of superhuman greedy wicked Vampires". Hell in my opinion the Tremere should have a lot of tricks to conjure and banish illegal weapons and explosives, and their biggest concern is to not have witnesses or leave forensic evidence. They probably have rituals that screw with the Forensics when using bullets or bombs or acid.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by elmerg View Post


    Man, you're letting your players use military-grade weaponry? Geez. Ultimately, you could adapt the grenade rules from the NWoD book Armory if you have it, they're somewhat sensible. But...why even let the players HAVE that stuff? Seriously.
    Because they enjoy it and it makes sense for their story? Some of the characters could have a contact in military, or the black market?

    I never subscribed to this "if you need rules for grenades in a vtM game, you're playing it wrong" attitude. It's just badwrongfun.

    Leave a comment:


  • elmerg
    replied
    Originally posted by Argonot View Post

    Good, Ill use the plus 5 with the rocket. Sounds fair.

    Still dont know how to manage the grenade with that system. Theres a player on my chronicle who has Potence 5 and throws grenades like baseballs, so I guess I have to roll damage for the hit - Potence 5, again - and the explosion. That explosion is the one I dont know how to play.

    Man, you're letting your players use military-grade weaponry? Geez. Ultimately, you could adapt the grenade rules from the NWoD book Armory if you have it, they're somewhat sensible. But...why even let the players HAVE that stuff? Seriously.

    Leave a comment:


  • Argonot
    replied
    Originally posted by MCN View Post
    Well, you asked about grenades and rockets, which encompass a wide variety of explosives and power. Getting hit directly with a rocket launcher is going to put a very bad dent in anyone, vampire or not. A more traditional frag grenade will do less damage.

    That said, I find I have to disagree with LastCourier. V5's rule system doesn't really work with AoE effects like that - there's still contested rolls to consider. As well, a shotgun blast at close range only has a +4 damage modifier. I would suggest that a rocket gets a +5 modifier, in that case. Both should shred someone at point blank. Combine with successes on the attack roll, that should be enough damage to put down even someone with Stamina 5.
    Good, Ill use the plus 5 with the rocket. Sounds fair.

    Still dont know how to manage the grenade with that system. Theres a player on my chronicle who has Potence 5 and throws grenades like baseballs, so I guess I have to roll damage for the hit - Potence 5, again - and the explosion. That explosion is the one I dont know how to play.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    Originally posted by MCN View Post
    Getting hit directly with a rocket launcher is going to put a very bad dent in anyone, vampire or not.
    Meh. I dunno. Getting hit with a rocket launcher might do +2 damage, and call for a Strength+Melee roll. It's the equivalent of swinging around a tire iron or baseball bat.

    Now... getting hit by a rocket launched from a rocket launcher is a different matter entirely...


    Leave a comment:


  • MCN
    replied
    Well, you asked about grenades and rockets, which encompass a wide variety of explosives and power. Getting hit directly with a rocket launcher is going to put a very bad dent in anyone, vampire or not. A more traditional frag grenade will do less damage.

    That said, I find I have to disagree with LastCourier. V5's rule system doesn't really work with AoE effects like that - there's still contested rolls to consider. As well, a shotgun blast at close range only has a +4 damage modifier. I would suggest that a rocket gets a +5 modifier, in that case. Both should shred someone at point blank. Combine with successes on the attack roll, that should be enough damage to put down even someone with Stamina 5.

    Leave a comment:


  • Argonot
    replied
    Originally posted by LastCourier View Post
    Something like 14+ superficial at center, and minus 1 per meter after 2-4 meters
    I was completely underrating a grenade's destructive power, then...

    Leave a comment:

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