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  • #16
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    Revenants - Its mostly the koldunic rituals and bonds with those demons of the land that make revenants work - creating a new line wouldn't work without something outside of the Camarilla's normal influence.

    Look at the ones outside of the Tzimesce's (current) influence -
    - D'habi - Created by Baali
    - Ducheski - Stolen by Tremere, were the Krevcheski Tzimesce line
    - Enrathi, Marijava & Rafastio- True Black Hand
    - Kairouan Brotherhood - Assamite Sorcerors
    - Rosselini - Giovanni
    - Servants of Anushin-Rawan (Ventrue, with Fae blood in the populace contributing to the Revenant line being created)

    The Hermetic style Thaumaturgy of the Tremere doesn't have the power to make revenant lines, it takes something weird to kick off the process.
    I think it’s inaccurate to say they don’t have the power. I think it’s more accurate to say they don’t have the knowledge, Voivodes have been doing it for millennia remember. And I see nothing indicating that Spirit of the land are essential, as other blood Sorcerers have achieved it.

    After all before Creating Vazhd required Koldunic Sorcerers but after the formation of the Sabbat they managed to create combinations with help of Tremere Antitribu.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
      I think it’s inaccurate to say they don’t have the power. I think it’s more accurate to say they don’t have the knowledge, Voivodes have been doing it for millennia remember. And I see nothing indicating that Spirit of the land are essential, as other blood Sorcerers have achieved it.
      I use the word "Power" not in terms of discipline level or Generational power and the like, I mean that it doesn't fit in to the paradigm of Hermeticism.
      Just like Potence doesn't have the power to let you transform yourself in to an animal. You can have level 10, it's just not what Potence does...

      Tzimesce Koldun connect to Demons (Spirits) of the land.
      Baali have used Infernal (Dark) Thaumaturgy, involving demons and the like.
      Assamite Sorcery (Dur'An'Kai) utilities "ancient covenants with spirits, commanding them to fulfill their desires"
      Giovanni use Necromancy with connection to the spirits of the dead to form these generational connections
      The Servants of Anushin are bred with fae stock on Yiaros
      And the True Black hand has access to Necromancy, Dark Thaum and Koldunism...

      My point is that Tremere Thaumaturgy is powerful because it commands instant action, but the lingering relationships with other entities is not something that it handles well, and that is the common thread that the creators of Revenant lines have.

      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
      After all before Creating Vazhd required Koldunic Sorcerers but after the formation of the Sabbat they managed to create combinations with help of Tremere Antitribu.
      There's nothing I've seen explicitly (In my Memory) that says they've worked out the kinks with the help of Tremere. There are Vozhd in the setting but I can't remember seeing how they're made in modern day without one of the specific powers...

      The Blood Brothers were created by Tremere and Tzimesce in modern day though

      Last edited by Illithid; 06-19-2019, 09:12 PM.

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      • #18
        Just another thought to toss out there. Since even if you raise people over the course of multiple generations, there will always be the occasional rebel who wants to get out and see if it's all true...

        Maybe the entrance to the surface is blocked off with a set of heavy duty blast doors, which require pass code recognition to open? That will stop the slaves from getting out, and the SI from getting in.

        Originally posted by Illithid View Post


        There's nothing I've seen explicitly (In my Memory) that says they've worked out the kinks with the help of Tremere. There are Vozhd in the setting but I can't remember seeing how they're made in modern day without one of the specific powers...


        I think creating Vohzd is supposed to be a lost art, retained only by extremely powerful elders.

        Aren't there only like 3 people in the canon lore who have survived an encounter with one?
        Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-19-2019, 09:17 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          Just another thought to toss out there. Since even if you raise people over the course of multiple generations, there will always be the occasional rebel who wants to get out and see if it's all true...

          Maybe the entrance to the surface is blocked off with a set of heavy duty blast doors, which require pass code recognition to open? That will stop the slaves from getting out, and the SI from getting in.
          1 - There is plenty of media to show how that turns out in general

          2 - That's an awfully shitty Vampire that can't run a decent secret police state and indoctrination for their underground human farm

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          • #20
            An underground human farm is one thing, but if these are the full on ancients of the kindred world, I might say that the ancients primary goal would not simply be to farm humans, but to create stable breeder populations of kindred that can sate their ancient tastes. Using their powers, time, and a variety of means to secure a completely isolated and secured underground facility, I imagine it wouldn't take more then a few decades or centuries before the ancients could work out a scheme to populate an underground bunker realm with children who know nothing else. Wait a few generations and throw out the occasional gesture to build up a cultural cult and then add vampires to the mix, supporting as many as possible. Another few generations down the line, the ancients can begin demanding sacrifice in exchange for their blessings and from that point on, they have an automated vitae farm supporting their immortal reigns.

            Then when you consider that the ancients in this scenario likely began experimenting over a millennia ago and they almost certainly had several maintained at once, rather then just one arbitrary location, you start to see the image of a vast tyrannical conspiracy built upon supporting the eternity of blood gods in ways that are almost unimaginably inhumane in their nature. Plenty of room to work with to pull some really chilling stuff with a narrative conceit like this...

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            • #21
              The biggest issue with the subterranean city is that the mortal population will be suffering from things like Vitamin D deficiencies and a host of related problems, not to mention circadian rhythm disfunctions. These issues wouldn't have been fully understood or be able to be countered until the last couple centuries at most. Not to mention that unless you have invested heavily into light sources, most of the population would be blind like many cave dwellers.

              The human farm that is entirely underground would probably work best as a form of anti-Gehenna project. Using modern knowledge and technology you can counter most of the issues from underground living. I could see a simple program where babies that are put up for adoption or left for sanctuary are genetically screened and picked up for the project. Then like the movie Soldier they are raised from birth to be the very best minions. Thanks to ghouling you don't have to worry about losing a top grade recruit to old age. Once you have a large enough breeding pool you seal of the system and let the experiment run until Gehenna.

              There are a couple of benefits to having true elder vampires run this program. The first is that if Gehenna hits, the modern world pretty much goes away and is replaced with mad max or fist of the north star. That sort of setting would be more like some elder vampires mortal lives so they would be ready to deal with the change in priorities. Additionally it is worth noting that Elder Vampires tend to get those nifty large scale Discipline powers, which would make running an underground city state far more simple.

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              • #22
                I’m expecting ghoulish side effects from the unwholesome denial of the sunlight, but we have Chatterlings already so we know similar things already exist for millennia. Like chstterlings they could regularly be replenished by orphans and kidnapped mortals.

                But cave fish are blind because they evolved inbred in caves for millions of years. A human population won’t go blind just because they live underground in a mere couple generations that is silly, and light still exists so they won’t be incentivized to go completely blind, perhaps just bad vision over all, or even enhanced night vision, or who knows if they start becoming revanent.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                  I’m expecting ghoulish side effects from the unwholesome denial of the sunlight, but we have Chatterlings already so we know similar things already exist for millennia. Like chstterlings they could regularly be replenished by orphans and kidnapped mortals.

                  But cave fish are blind because they evolved inbred in caves for millions of years. A human population won’t go blind just because they live underground in a mere couple generations that is silly, and light still exists so they won’t be incentivized to go completely blind, perhaps just bad vision over all, or even enhanced night vision, or who knows if they start becoming revanent.

                  Assuming we're talking about a literal city, and not just a network of cave tunnels, it's entirely possible to build some kind of electrical grid to keep the city illuminated for the mortals.

                  Of course, building a literal city underground would take decades. But A) vampires / ghouls have all the time in the world to get it done, and B) disciplines can increase the work output many times over.

                  Originally posted by Thoth View Post

                  There are a couple of benefits to having true elder vampires run this program. The first is that if Gehenna hits, the modern world pretty much goes away and is replaced with mad max or fist of the north star.
                  In which the role of Kenshiro is played by Caine!
                  Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-21-2019, 11:11 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                    The faction of Assamites that aren't connected with their Sorcerer supreme?
                    His direct childe (who was a mage in his own right for like 5 centuries before his Embrace) is kind of leading the Camarilla Assamites, so.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ideon View Post
                      His direct childe (who was a mage in his own right for like 5 centuries before his Embrace) is kind of leading the Camarilla Assamites, so.
                      Ok, so lets say they do have the know how to make a revenant line.

                      That still leaves
                      - Not enough time for them to be created and affect the plot
                      - V5 may not have Revenants in the system any way
                      - New super-exclusive boys club Camarilla looks to be even less likely to accept Revenants than the old Camarilla
                      - There's no longer any level 6+ powers or rituals to help create them (*Although, no power sets have explicitly given stats that state how they come in to creation)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                        Ok, so lets say they do have the know how to make a revenant line.

                        That still leaves
                        - Not enough time for them to be created and affect the plot
                        - V5 may not have Revenants in the system any way
                        - New super-exclusive boys club Camarilla looks to be even less likely to accept Revenants than the old Camarilla
                        - There's no longer any level 6+ powers or rituals to help create them (*Although, no power sets have explicitly given stats that state how they come in to creation)
                        This is a nonV5 thread... so V20/Revised...

                        And enough time to effect the plot is arbitrary you could say they were in development for decades or even centuries in this scenario. Or they are starting from ground up. But no reason the game couldn't advance forward decades or Centuries more.

                        And the Tremere have already been trying to reverse Engineer their own Revenant line from those whats their names Duchevi?


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

                          This is a nonV5 thread... so V20/Revised...

                          And enough time to effect the plot is arbitrary you could say they were in development for decades or even centuries in this scenario. Or they are starting from ground up. But no reason the game couldn't advance forward decades or Centuries more.

                          And the Tremere have already been trying to reverse Engineer their own Revenant line from those whats their names Duchevi?
                          Which Assamites were coming across in the metaplot before V20? I know it was the same schism, but I'm pretty sure that they weren't accepted as a member clan yet, so publicly doing anything weird would make things difficult, especially if it's seen as something that the Sabbat are known for

                          Tremere stole the Krevcheski line from the Tzimesce and they are now called the Ducheski, they haven't created or reverse engineered them.

                          If you want Revenants in the game for Camarilla; The Assamite Schismatics could bring the Kairouan Brotherhood in their defection from the core clan, say that they don't fit into the Militant Web-of-Knives plan because they've decided to "reclaim the blood" that was invested in the revenants. Or the Revenants weren't all up for worshipping Haquim before their mortal faiths.

                          For plans that have been in place for a while, I'd still look at the bond with spirits or something considered dark and unnatural that fuels it working. Something that would make people question the morality of them existing and their usefulness.
                          Using Banes of Lust to fuel the revenant line's transformation from just ghouls and getting a "Bloodline" Weakness and disciplines that reflect that.
                          Personally I'd love to see Thirster Banes in a few games; using them to fuel the transition from Ghoul into Revenant lines would make sense - drawn by the quantities of Vitae used. The Revenants seeming to be without flaw until a vampire feeds from them and they get infected by the Thirster, changing in to a bloodworm.

                          Otherwise - Lasombra Mystics conjuring Abyss spirits (Works well for the underground facility too)
                          - Kiasd tracking down long removed descendants from the revenant lines and interbreeding the magic back in to restart a Revenant family.
                          - Tremere have a breeding program that's almost at cloning levels, getting their Ducheski to breed as quickly as possible with each other and Mortals fed vitae, and have Ghouls become wet-nurses. Will lose many ghouls and mortals this way.

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                          • #28
                            They are studying the Ducheski and haven’t reverse engineered them yet, but they are studying them.


                            And in tail end of revised they were considering giving the Justicar slot the Gangrel gave up to the Schismatic Assamites.

                            But that’s an interesting idea with the name research. It would be fun if it went wrong and they accidentally created a line of Ferectoi/Revenant. I’ll totally use that idea for my next game.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                              In which the role of Kenshiro is played by Caine!
                              To be fair I have yet to play a pre-history game where the PCs were gen 5 or so and it didn't turn into that sort of thing.

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                              • #30
                                Also lets take into account that say the Camarilla also steals tech advancement from governments and industries around the world for their project, though things like Obfuscate to sneak into homes and steal info, Dominate and Auspex to steal knowledge or passwords at least, or just possessing the body of certain individuals involved in black ops projects and stealing the data directly.

                                At some point I imagine they will stumble upon some really good tech from say Pentex, DNA, and Techies.

                                I can see the highest scientists and Engineers of such projects developing Enlightened Science paradigm of Sorcery. I always figured that is what DNA uses.


                                It is a time for great deeds!

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