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  • #16
    Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post

    I would be surprised if Cults of the Blood Gods doesn't get a Kickstarter.
    Best news I've heard all day.

    Thank you for telling us!


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post

      They aren't being retconned out of existence, however. There'll still be gypsies in the World of Darkness, it's just that they won't be associated with any one clan anymore.

      What Atamajakki said. Could you not?

      ------

      And, we're kickstarting Cults?
      Well... Okay. That was not the best news I've heard. I had hoped it would just glide to publication somewhere along the next six months, but if there's a KS involved, that seems to reduce those chances.


      __________________________________________________
      Preaching the enlightened gospels of Gaming Anarchy

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      • #18
        That word will not appear in anything I develop.


        Matthew Dawkins
        In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


        Website: http://www.matthewdawkins.com
        Patreon: http://https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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        • #19
          Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

          The game learned to stop using that slur, can you do the same?
          Originally posted by Growls View Post


          What Atamajakki said. Could you not?

          It's been brought up multiple times before, but there are actual communities that request to be called gypses, that do not identify as any kind of Rom or Romani and consider those to be slurs, so could we draw a line under this?

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          • #20
            Personally, I'm more interested in the Salubri and Cappadocians than the Ravnos. I'm hoping that the Salubri, in particular, still retain their peaceful ways in the Final Nights, as I find that to be the most appealing aspect of the clan.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cendrillon View Post
              Personally, I'm more interested in the Salubri and Cappadocians than the Ravnos. I'm hoping that the Salubri, in particular, still retain their peaceful ways in the Final Nights, as I find that to be the most appealing aspect of the clan.
              I feel like the Salubri Antitribu, while not a terrible idea, feel like they cost the Clan a great deal of its identity.

              Revenge against the Tremere is great and all but a bunch of rapidly Embraced shovelheads aren't going to really be that much different than any Caitiff.

              I admit I really loved the fact that the Salubri are alive in the Ashirra's territory, though, and possibly Laibon.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by GenerallyConfused View Post
                It's been brought up multiple times before, but there are actual communities that request to be called gypses, that do not identify as any kind of Rom or Romani and consider those to be slurs, so could we draw a line under this?
                The people that with whom Clan Ravnos was associated are identified as Romani, at least by third parties, and not, for example, the Irishmen who live in caravan parks in the British Isles (unless they are, but that would be silly at best).
                Now, my biggest objection to making Ravnos the Romani clan is that there aren't enough Romani around to make Ravnos a significant part of most games, outside some regions like Central Europe or the Balkans. If Setites were near exclusively Egyptian or the White Howler tribe remained as Pictish, they'd have the same problem. The Romani are a diasporic culture, but outside literature and legend, they're not big enough. At least Giovanni, included their doubled-blooded families, were rich enough to throw a bit more weight around.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  I feel like the Salubri Antitribu, while not a terrible idea, feel like they cost the Clan a great deal of its identity.

                  Revenge against the Tremere is great and all but a bunch of rapidly Embraced shovelheads aren't going to really be that much different than any Caitiff.
                  I think the Antitribu were a good facet of the clan - a new aspect of their ancient warrior/healer divide. Also, I don't think they did the shovelhead thing. The Sabbat guide said they spent far more time indoctrinating and training their childer than usual for Sabbat.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

                    The game learned to stop using that slur, can you do the same?
                    Yeah, sure, whatever. Point still stands.
                    In order to make the Ravnos be in any way respectful to Romani, we'd have to fundamentally change the Ravnos in order for them to be flattering or, at the very least, we would have to give them more appealing characteristics than they possess now.
                    Instead, it'd be better to; rather than attach the Ravnos to a particular group of people who have only existed for less than one percent of how long the clan has; attach them to a particular place in the world like VTM already does with other clans like the Tzimisce and the Lasombra. In this case, India.
                    As I said before, this does not mean that the Romani cease to exist in the World of Darkness. It just means that one clan's identity isn't intrinsically connected to theirs. While you could still have Romani Ravnos; and, in fact, Romani members of any other clan; they'd be the descendants of Elders who accompanied them in their first treks off India.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post

                      Yeah, sure, whatever. Point still stands.
                      In order to make the Ravnos be in any way respectful to Romani, we'd have to fundamentally change the Ravnos in order for them to be flattering or, at the very least, we would have to give them more appealing characteristics than they possess now.
                      Instead, it'd be better to; rather than attach the Ravnos to a particular group of people who have only existed for less than one percent of how long the clan has; attach them to a particular place in the world like VTM already does with other clans like the Tzimisce and the Lasombra. In this case, India.
                      As I said before, this does not mean that the Romani cease to exist in the World of Darkness. It just means that one clan's identity isn't intrinsically connected to theirs. While you could still have Romani Ravnos; and, in fact, Romani members of any other clan; they'd be the descendants of Elders who accompanied them in their first treks off India.
                      I feel like we're in a weird place because the Ravnos have ALREADY been changed.

                      Ravnos Revised got rid of the Romani angle or at least downplayed it almost nonexistent.

                      That's still canon.

                      Which means it's been canon for 20 years.

                      Did you ever read Ravnos Revised?


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post

                        Yeah, sure, whatever. Point still stands.
                        In order to make the Ravnos be in any way respectful to Romani, we'd have to fundamentally change the Ravnos in order for them to be flattering or, at the very least, we would have to give them more appealing characteristics than they possess now.
                        That’s not how representation works. The point is not to depict an under-represented group in a flattering light, the point is to depict them as complex, multidimensional people, while avoiding the pitfalls of harmful stereotypes. And the way to do that is to get someone who is actually a member of the group in question and knows how to depict them in a manner that is both realistic and respectful to write it.


                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

                          The people that with whom Clan Ravnos was associated are identified as Romani, at least by third parties, and not, for example, the Irishmen who live in caravan parks in the British Isles (unless they are, but that would be silly at best).
                          Now, my biggest objection to making Ravnos the Romani clan is that there aren't enough Romani around to make Ravnos a significant part of most games, outside some regions like Central Europe or the Balkans. If Setites were near exclusively Egyptian or the White Howler tribe remained as Pictish, they'd have the same problem. The Romani are a diasporic culture, but outside literature and legend, they're not big enough. At least Giovanni, included their doubled-blooded families, were rich enough to throw a bit more weight around.
                          Yeah that’s my issue, while the Romani diaspora is huge I would like them to be from every culture as they are a pragmatic clan. But why would Irish Travelers be a silly choice for Ravnos? Ravnos like survivalists and nomads, and the insular caravan like customs of Irish Travelers sound like a perfect fit. I just assumed in my games in the UK and Ireland they attract plenty of Gangrel and Brujah, and the few Ravnos around, and as well as Nosferatu and Malkavians but they go all over the place with their choices.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

                            Yeah that’s my issue, while the Romani diaspora is huge I would like them to be from every culture as they are a pragmatic clan. But why would Irish Travelers be a silly choice for Ravnos? Ravnos like survivalists and nomads, and the insular caravan like customs of Irish Travelers sound like a perfect fit. I just assumed in my games in the UK and Ireland they attract plenty of Gangrel and Brujah, and the few Ravnos around, and as well as Nosferatu and Malkavians but they go all over the place with their choices.

                            Truth be told in my games the Ravnos have always been about nomads in the fringes and underbelly of society. Ravnos that might poach childer and herds from romani but just as well they would do so from biker gangs, circus troupes, groups of truckers, illegal immigrants, professional sailors & contrabandists, war refugees and many, many other individuals besides that move between the cracks of nations & societies, with the occasional twist for color, like "rockstar Lestat clone", "supermodel & minion staff" or "flight attendant with a ghouled crew", that can be just as valid takes of drifters/picaro concepts as "coyote syndicate leader", "celebrity illusionist", "somali pirate" or "enlightened/mad suffi mystic/pilgrim" or more historic ones like warlord/shaman of mongol-turkic, berber or whichever origin one might prefer.

                            In fact i have commented on some of these previously in the forums.
                            Last edited by Baaldam; 06-18-2019, 02:12 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


                              Truth be told in my games the Ravnos have always been about nomads in the fringes and underbelly of society. Ravnos that might poach childer and herds from romani but just as well they would do so from biker gangs, circus troupes, groups of truckers, illegal immigrants, professional sailors & contrabandists, war refugees and many, many other individuals besides that move between the cracks of nations & societies, with the occasional twist for color, like "rockstar Lestat clone", "supermodel & minion staff" or "flight attendant with a ghouled crew", that can be just as valid takes of drifters/picaro concepts as "coyote syndicate leader", "celebrity illusionist", "somali pirate" or "enlightened/mad suffi mystic/pilgrim" or more historic ones like warlord/shaman of mongol-turkic, berber or whichever origin one might prefer.

                              In fact i have commented on some of these previously in the forums.

                              Yeah, maybe because I got into vampire with Revised but I always went with Outsiders and Nomads in general were Ravnos stock, rather then Romani.


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post


                                Yeah, maybe because I got into vampire with Revised but I always went with Outsiders and Nomads in general were Ravnos stock, rather then Romani.

                                Nah, it was kind of a mixed bag even in 2nd edition, at least when there was only the Player's Guide, that was short and punchy, leaving much for individual STs to reinterpret, expand and make up on their own. In fact the gnostic quasi-lovecraftian monks and the german/norse Ravineus i used in games in '95-96, about 1-2 years before their clanbook.

                                It was that the "Gypsies" book - and how much the Ravnos clanbook referenced it, that almost crystalized things while leaving a kind of shadow & sour aftertaste on things, i guess. Then some time later DA and Revised tried to get out of it in a weird way by backtracking the romani's old and faded roots in India. And so it goes.

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