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Mathew Dawkins interview about the future of 5E

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  • CTPhipps
    started a topic Mathew Dawkins interview about the future of 5E

    Mathew Dawkins interview about the future of 5E

    I just saw this on his webpage.

    http://www.geek-pride.co.uk/tabletop...z0HHBHTogiqKaU

    Lots of interesting insights into what's coming out.

  • Frontline989
    replied
    As with any Clan they have millennia of history and have been spreading throughout the cultures of the world so there is a million ways the Ravnos can be represented. In my game for example the Ravnos NPC is a Russian WW2 veteran who came to America to spread his communist ideals to the Kindred of the city. He's an Anarch by definition since he preaches the downfall of the Camarilla establishment but comports himself as an Independent. This is not any more or less valid a concept than a Romani elder who's been traveling with his extended family for the past 300 years. The Romani aspect of the Ravnos is still a positive facet of the Clan and I hope they don't completely retcon it out of the metaplot.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Interesting ideas!

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  • Gnomish American
    replied
    I've been planning a redux of the Transylvania Saga and two (TWO!!!) players want to be Ravnos, where I would prefer none, because tying them to India in a game predominately set in Europe (yes, they added a bunch of Laibon and the Anda to allow for games outside dark-fantasy Europe but there wasn't much to back it up) and then their concepts came it as "Bulgarian cut purse turned spy turned triple agent after the Embrace (a non-Rom childe of Vassily Taltos the proto-romani) and a... german nurse. Neither had ever played before so the concepts were made blind based around "OOH this looks cool" and the second one was... well she couldn't explain how she was a member of this clan of non-European vampires in the middle of the continent.

    so I went to work on the clan and came to a conclusion.

    Part of the problem is the name Ravnos, its a Romani surname. just like all the other Players Guide Independent Clans, its based on a cultural stereotype mixed with the card game Illuminati.

    2 the Jati are actually pretty well documented as being vastly different from one another. So different that I decided to drop the clan name altogether (and have been hemming and hawing about doing the same with the other 12 but with the Ravnos its more obvious)

    You have the Alexandrites who descend from Akhenaten nee Ramessu a man who can't help but tell big lies (Dude claimed to be JUDAS a few millennia ago for crying out loud) and whos curse turns them into game-lawyers who can't help but point out that you said the wrong version of "their" out loud.

    Bashirites are doomsday cultists from (you guessed it) the holy land who embrace christians exclusively and who have a habit of going on about the end of the world (Ramessu embraced Bashir while in the guise of Judas)

    Phaedymites in gaul (kinda, they haven't been seen in centuries) who have a habit of declaring holy wars on other members of the clans who they see as usurpers.

    Syberites who were so debauched that they made the ROMANS say "get the fuck out!" before having the above mentioned holy war dropped on their heads

    Yoryari who are spiritualist descendants of the syberites (who have literally been struck from all written history mind you) who have a pentiant for naval gazing and looking for excuses for their...uh... vices.

    and then you have the Ravnos who come out of asia minor only 1000 years ago (late 12th century to be exact) and who, despite having descended from some Romani boy embraced by what can best be described as an Untouchable.

    And this is just the Western branch.

    These guys are so different and have such different backgrounds that when they meet eachother they don't even recognize each other as members of the same clan for crying out loud.

    If any clan deserves their own book its the Ravnos, and its one I could get behind in a heartbeat.








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  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post


    Yeah, maybe because I got into vampire with Revised but I always went with Outsiders and Nomads in general were Ravnos stock, rather then Romani.

    Nah, it was kind of a mixed bag even in 2nd edition, at least when there was only the Player's Guide, that was short and punchy, leaving much for individual STs to reinterpret, expand and make up on their own. In fact the gnostic quasi-lovecraftian monks and the german/norse Ravineus i used in games in '95-96, about 1-2 years before their clanbook.

    It was that the "Gypsies" book - and how much the Ravnos clanbook referenced it, that almost crystalized things while leaving a kind of shadow & sour aftertaste on things, i guess. Then some time later DA and Revised tried to get out of it in a weird way by backtracking the romani's old and faded roots in India. And so it goes.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


    Truth be told in my games the Ravnos have always been about nomads in the fringes and underbelly of society. Ravnos that might poach childer and herds from romani but just as well they would do so from biker gangs, circus troupes, groups of truckers, illegal immigrants, professional sailors & contrabandists, war refugees and many, many other individuals besides that move between the cracks of nations & societies, with the occasional twist for color, like "rockstar Lestat clone", "supermodel & minion staff" or "flight attendant with a ghouled crew", that can be just as valid takes of drifters/picaro concepts as "coyote syndicate leader", "celebrity illusionist", "somali pirate" or "enlightened/mad suffi mystic/pilgrim" or more historic ones like warlord/shaman of mongol-turkic, berber or whichever origin one might prefer.

    In fact i have commented on some of these previously in the forums.

    Yeah, maybe because I got into vampire with Revised but I always went with Outsiders and Nomads in general were Ravnos stock, rather then Romani.

    Leave a comment:


  • Baaldam
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

    Yeah that’s my issue, while the Romani diaspora is huge I would like them to be from every culture as they are a pragmatic clan. But why would Irish Travelers be a silly choice for Ravnos? Ravnos like survivalists and nomads, and the insular caravan like customs of Irish Travelers sound like a perfect fit. I just assumed in my games in the UK and Ireland they attract plenty of Gangrel and Brujah, and the few Ravnos around, and as well as Nosferatu and Malkavians but they go all over the place with their choices.

    Truth be told in my games the Ravnos have always been about nomads in the fringes and underbelly of society. Ravnos that might poach childer and herds from romani but just as well they would do so from biker gangs, circus troupes, groups of truckers, illegal immigrants, professional sailors & contrabandists, war refugees and many, many other individuals besides that move between the cracks of nations & societies, with the occasional twist for color, like "rockstar Lestat clone", "supermodel & minion staff" or "flight attendant with a ghouled crew", that can be just as valid takes of drifters/picaro concepts as "coyote syndicate leader", "celebrity illusionist", "somali pirate" or "enlightened/mad suffi mystic/pilgrim" or more historic ones like warlord/shaman of mongol-turkic, berber or whichever origin one might prefer.

    In fact i have commented on some of these previously in the forums.
    Last edited by Baaldam; 06-18-2019, 02:12 PM.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

    The people that with whom Clan Ravnos was associated are identified as Romani, at least by third parties, and not, for example, the Irishmen who live in caravan parks in the British Isles (unless they are, but that would be silly at best).
    Now, my biggest objection to making Ravnos the Romani clan is that there aren't enough Romani around to make Ravnos a significant part of most games, outside some regions like Central Europe or the Balkans. If Setites were near exclusively Egyptian or the White Howler tribe remained as Pictish, they'd have the same problem. The Romani are a diasporic culture, but outside literature and legend, they're not big enough. At least Giovanni, included their doubled-blooded families, were rich enough to throw a bit more weight around.
    Yeah that’s my issue, while the Romani diaspora is huge I would like them to be from every culture as they are a pragmatic clan. But why would Irish Travelers be a silly choice for Ravnos? Ravnos like survivalists and nomads, and the insular caravan like customs of Irish Travelers sound like a perfect fit. I just assumed in my games in the UK and Ireland they attract plenty of Gangrel and Brujah, and the few Ravnos around, and as well as Nosferatu and Malkavians but they go all over the place with their choices.

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  • Charlaquin
    replied
    Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post

    Yeah, sure, whatever. Point still stands.
    In order to make the Ravnos be in any way respectful to Romani, we'd have to fundamentally change the Ravnos in order for them to be flattering or, at the very least, we would have to give them more appealing characteristics than they possess now.
    That’s not how representation works. The point is not to depict an under-represented group in a flattering light, the point is to depict them as complex, multidimensional people, while avoiding the pitfalls of harmful stereotypes. And the way to do that is to get someone who is actually a member of the group in question and knows how to depict them in a manner that is both realistic and respectful to write it.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post

    Yeah, sure, whatever. Point still stands.
    In order to make the Ravnos be in any way respectful to Romani, we'd have to fundamentally change the Ravnos in order for them to be flattering or, at the very least, we would have to give them more appealing characteristics than they possess now.
    Instead, it'd be better to; rather than attach the Ravnos to a particular group of people who have only existed for less than one percent of how long the clan has; attach them to a particular place in the world like VTM already does with other clans like the Tzimisce and the Lasombra. In this case, India.
    As I said before, this does not mean that the Romani cease to exist in the World of Darkness. It just means that one clan's identity isn't intrinsically connected to theirs. While you could still have Romani Ravnos; and, in fact, Romani members of any other clan; they'd be the descendants of Elders who accompanied them in their first treks off India.
    I feel like we're in a weird place because the Ravnos have ALREADY been changed.

    Ravnos Revised got rid of the Romani angle or at least downplayed it almost nonexistent.

    That's still canon.

    Which means it's been canon for 20 years.

    Did you ever read Ravnos Revised?

    Leave a comment:


  • HardestadtTheEvenYounger
    replied
    Originally posted by atamajakki View Post

    The game learned to stop using that slur, can you do the same?
    Yeah, sure, whatever. Point still stands.
    In order to make the Ravnos be in any way respectful to Romani, we'd have to fundamentally change the Ravnos in order for them to be flattering or, at the very least, we would have to give them more appealing characteristics than they possess now.
    Instead, it'd be better to; rather than attach the Ravnos to a particular group of people who have only existed for less than one percent of how long the clan has; attach them to a particular place in the world like VTM already does with other clans like the Tzimisce and the Lasombra. In this case, India.
    As I said before, this does not mean that the Romani cease to exist in the World of Darkness. It just means that one clan's identity isn't intrinsically connected to theirs. While you could still have Romani Ravnos; and, in fact, Romani members of any other clan; they'd be the descendants of Elders who accompanied them in their first treks off India.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cifer
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I feel like the Salubri Antitribu, while not a terrible idea, feel like they cost the Clan a great deal of its identity.

    Revenge against the Tremere is great and all but a bunch of rapidly Embraced shovelheads aren't going to really be that much different than any Caitiff.
    I think the Antitribu were a good facet of the clan - a new aspect of their ancient warrior/healer divide. Also, I don't think they did the shovelhead thing. The Sabbat guide said they spent far more time indoctrinating and training their childer than usual for Sabbat.

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  • Spencer from The Hills
    replied
    Originally posted by GenerallyConfused View Post
    It's been brought up multiple times before, but there are actual communities that request to be called gypses, that do not identify as any kind of Rom or Romani and consider those to be slurs, so could we draw a line under this?
    The people that with whom Clan Ravnos was associated are identified as Romani, at least by third parties, and not, for example, the Irishmen who live in caravan parks in the British Isles (unless they are, but that would be silly at best).
    Now, my biggest objection to making Ravnos the Romani clan is that there aren't enough Romani around to make Ravnos a significant part of most games, outside some regions like Central Europe or the Balkans. If Setites were near exclusively Egyptian or the White Howler tribe remained as Pictish, they'd have the same problem. The Romani are a diasporic culture, but outside literature and legend, they're not big enough. At least Giovanni, included their doubled-blooded families, were rich enough to throw a bit more weight around.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Cendrillon View Post
    Personally, I'm more interested in the Salubri and Cappadocians than the Ravnos. I'm hoping that the Salubri, in particular, still retain their peaceful ways in the Final Nights, as I find that to be the most appealing aspect of the clan.
    I feel like the Salubri Antitribu, while not a terrible idea, feel like they cost the Clan a great deal of its identity.

    Revenge against the Tremere is great and all but a bunch of rapidly Embraced shovelheads aren't going to really be that much different than any Caitiff.

    I admit I really loved the fact that the Salubri are alive in the Ashirra's territory, though, and possibly Laibon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cendrillon
    replied
    Personally, I'm more interested in the Salubri and Cappadocians than the Ravnos. I'm hoping that the Salubri, in particular, still retain their peaceful ways in the Final Nights, as I find that to be the most appealing aspect of the clan.

    Leave a comment:

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