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Isn't Genius Loci too op!?

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  • Herr Meister
    started a topic Isn't Genius Loci too op!?

    Isn't Genius Loci too op!?

    I mean, I never paid much attention to the krainas and all, specially because I didn't like most of them in the first place, but then a player of one of my tables, is creating a Tzimisce and he told me he would like to get this "Path" (in earlier versions it was known as Path/Way of Spirit), So I told him it was supposed to be used in one's dominion, but then the player told me that Genius Loci isn't tied to one's dominion and can be used freely anywhere the "damn son of a bratovitch" is treading. And to make matters worse, the power description explicity states that Obfuscate can't fool the Tzimisce using this ├╝ber power, so I thought "wtf!?" and told my player I needed time to evaluate this unexpected turn of events lol!

    So all in all, do you guys think this power is fine as it is? Can you give me a reason not to only restrict it to the Tzimisces dominion?

  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

    you can, actually

    you can bind them with their true name,
    and you can double-bind them if you give them a host and blood bond it

    IF you have the time to do that when dealing with spirits in a hostile Koldun's domain... then you don't need to.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post


    And of course you can even bind them to objects creating interesting fetishes.


    (10 characters long message requirement)

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

    you can, actually

    you can bind them with their true name,
    and you can double-bind them if you give them a host and blood bond it

    And of course you can even bind them to objects creating interesting fetishes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    because "fuck vampires" that's the danger of dealing with unearthly powers you can't just blood bond them.
    you can, actually

    you can bind them with their true name,
    and you can double-bind them if you give them a host and blood bond it

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post

    Yes, I'd always tell him. Specially because at the moment the coterie is dealing with an all-powerful Koldun and I'm pretty sure the player is going to try to offer a deal with the spirits of the Koldun's domain. I'm still thinking about how will they answer his offer


    Contrary to Garou propaganda Spirits are just as venial and corrupt as humans.. they just have different directions.. For the right bribes maybe they will help.. or maybe they will play both sides against the middle.. because "fuck vampires" that's the danger of dealing with unearthly powers you can't just blood bond them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post

    So you're saying they are forcing them into service!
    I wouldn't say he's forcing them (I wouldn't know),
    but if he's powerful enough to command them, he's powerful enough to pacify them

    he's just not a good example, since his magic allows him to do anything,
    if there was a cainite who had helios friends without magic, that would be quite interesting

    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    The main point of my argument is that "nobody" is sure about the ways of the spirit world, or at least nobody should be so sure.
    I agree. and for what it's worth, WtA's handling of the umbra is pretty silly imo, and certainly doesn't mesh well with the more..."classy" feel, or dark feel, of vtm

    but at the same time, I feel the other gamelines perspectives aren't really hurting vtm that much,
    in fact, I'd say it really adds a nice touch to the realities of the cainite condition and the tragedy that comes with it

    Leave a comment:


  • Bluecho
    replied
    While we speak often of the "World of Darkness", in practice all the splats exist in their own particular versions of the World of Darkness. Lupines in Vampire are not necessarily the same as the Garou of Werewolf, just as the Kindred of Vampire are not necessarily the same as the vampires in Werewolf. Each gameline examines the residents of the setting within their own overarching worldview.

    As such, even if a vampire is a spiritually dead creature that is anathema to the world, that may only be true within the context of Werewolf: The Apocalypse. If we're talking about a Vampire game - where the PCs are vampires and they regularly deal with mostly vampire nonsense - Gaia-theory does not necessarily apply.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

    except Cretheus has both elemental mastery and spirit manipulation at level 5,
    doesn't matter the spirit's alignment, his magic will bypass it
    So you're saying they are forcing them into service!

    Ok, granted. But, in any case, that doesn't change anything about my argument. It's been some time since I've read Lair of the Hidden, so you're probably right about them using their powers to control the said spirits, still as I said, that changes nothing about the rest of my argument. The main point of my argument is that "nobody" is sure about the ways of the spirit world, or at least nobody should be so sure. The Werewolf perspective put them on a "holy crusade" against the enemies of Gaia and in this they consider Vampires and many other creatures as inherently "evil", the same way that their perspective gives them an univocal interpretation of the world and that is what I disagree with. The Cretheus/Hilderic examples were just to show that possible deals with sun spirits and vampires do happen as I doubt both Cretheus and Hilderic would force their will onto the spirits all the time, they probably have dealings etc, but that isn't the point of my argument.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    Well, I don't think it's so night impossible for vampires to make deals with spirits of the sun/fire. Both Cretheus and his childe Hillderic use many pacts with fire and sun spirits and have such spiritual minions at their disposal, they basically have a paradigm where they consider these entities as holy as they consider themselves.
    except Cretheus has both elemental mastery and spirit manipulation at level 5,
    doesn't matter the spirit's alignment, his magic will bypass it

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Well, I don't think it's so night impossible for vampires to make deals with spirits of the sun/fire. Both Cretheus and his childe Hillderic use many pacts with fire and sun spirits and have such spiritual minions at their disposal, they basically have a paradigm where they consider these entities as holy as they consider themselves. Bluecho understood exactly what I meant when I exposed my interpretation of the WoD. I don't see the WoD in the same light as garou see. For me things are much more ambiguous and mysterious than what they tend to believe. The Garou basically think they know for sure how the spiritual world works, how the world was created and so on and that fits well with their rather animistic weltanschauung, but it's in no way the absolute truth in the World of Darkness. At least not in my opinion. It's just their worldview. I prefer to have an open mind with the supposed "absolute truths" of the WoD and that's why I quite enjoyed the more "agnostic" version of the WoD presented in the v20 lines.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
    I don't think Herr Meister was making a statement about morality - of Good or Evil - but rather of Absolutes versus Ambiguity.

    From the Werewolf perspective, regardless of value judgments, the facts of the matter are cut and dry. Your post itself shows what amounts to a bullet list of things that, from the Werewolf side of the WoD, are JUST TRUE:

    -Vampires have no spiritual identity
    -Spirits find vampires distasteful, categorically (unless they're Banes)
    -Vampires disrupt the spiritual fabric just by existing
    well, they don't disrupt just by existing, vitae usage is what disrupts (disciplines and such),
    this isn't from werewolf btw, it's from Kote,
    kote had a good amount of lore explaining cainite nature,
    and according to it, vampire activity disrupts the flow of chi and such,
    in the crossover scenarios, the kuei-jin had trouble in cainite territories due to cainites not maintaining a healthy feng shui and driving spirits mad

    vampires not being spiritual makes sense, it might just be an aspect of the curse, the one where Caine was cursed to wander the earth for eternity,
    and in turn, was prevented to escape to the Umbra or whatever, which explains why cainites have so much trouble accessing the umbra fully


    now, it's understandable if people don't want to use other game lines fluff as reference,
    and, to be fair, is really not necessary,
    have cainites ally with spirits all they want, doesn't really matter

    but, when you want to debate canon, the Kote/werewolf/mage lore is a good reference, and the only real reference, because VtM doesn't give enough information,
    in fact, vtm sometimes asks you to refer to other gamelines for spirit related things (like for crafting artifacts, where they ask you to refer to WtA fetishes)

    Leave a comment:


  • Bluecho
    replied
    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
    snip
    I don't think Herr Meister was making a statement about morality - of Good or Evil - but rather of Absolutes versus Ambiguity.

    From the Werewolf perspective, regardless of value judgments, the facts of the matter are cut and dry. Your post itself shows what amounts to a bullet list of things that, from the Werewolf side of the WoD, are JUST TRUE:

    -Vampires have no spiritual identity
    -Spirits find vampires distasteful, categorically (unless they're Banes)
    -Vampires disrupt the spiritual fabric just by existing

    For a Vampire game, however, things can - and probably should - be less clear cut, and more debatable. Because in Vampire, not even vampires can agree on basic theological or spiritual facts. These are open questions, because Vampire is meant to be Ambiguous, to create drama from the philosophical choices.

    Werewolf is a game where, setting aside moral concerns, everything is Absolute in its understanding of basic facts. Matters of personal character can be in question, but there are no mysteries. The Werewolves and Spirits know exactly where everything stands in relation to everything else. The conflicts are "Black and White", in the sense that everyone has already made up their minds about what their place in the world is, and who is on whose side.

    A game of Vampire - like much of vampiric existence - is "Shades of Grey" in the sense that even basic assumptions are in question. None more so than ones concerning the nature of a vampire's soul - whether they even have one - and what a vampire ought to do about it. The fact that Golconda is even a goal worth pursuing attests to a vastly different set of assumptions that Vampire: The Masquerade is making about what vampires are, than those of Werewolf: The Apocalypse.

    And if you're going to run a Vampire game, instead of a Werewolf game, you must work from Vampire's assumptions first. Even if that means making Werewolf "wrong". Indeed, especially if it makes Werewolf look wrong, because that makes players who cut their teeth of Werewolf suddenly have far fewer answers about the Vampire game they have in front of them. Reinforcing the mystique that is the cornerstone of Vampire's tone, themes, and appeal. They don't know where this is going, because suddenly their existing assumptions are in question.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    I like to think that the WoD is not a manichean world and I usually tell this to the garou players, because they tend to see things in a more "black and white" way. So I myself don't see a problem with Spirits allying themselves with cainites nor do I think this should be restricted to "only corrupted spirits" as I see the spiritual world more in a "shades of grey" than "black and white" way.
    But, nevertheless, this is always an interesting discussion.
    well, the matter is a bit complicated and not very well documented to be honest,
    but, afaik, you're both wrong, since the matter isn't about being nice or bad/corrupt, it's more about vampiric nature

    the regular Garou aren't nice or bad, their nature makes them allied with spirits of Gaia (because they come from Gaia) and enemies of Banes

    vampire nature makes them enemies of Gaian spirits and Helios spirits (sun spirits), maybe other spirits,
    otherwise, other spirits don't care one way or the other,
    not because vampires aren't nice enough or aren't bad enough, it's just that they have no real spiritual identity,

    at worst, spirits will find them distasteful, because they're devoid of spiritual presence and because the vitae causes disruptions in the tapestry (which drives spirits mad),
    conceptual spirits can't even begin to understand vampires, because vampires defy existence and no one can understand how they fit into the great scheme of things (because they don't fit),

    as for 'corrupt' spirits, by which I assume he meant 'banes' or wyrm spirits,
    same thing, vampire beasts radiate wyrm taint, bu vampires themselves aren't wyrmish,
    same for garou who have a beast and some wyrm taint, that doesn't make them of the wyrm,

    there are exceptions of course, such as vampire infernalists who serve some wyrmish avatars, vampire fomori (vampire banes),
    as well as vampire drones who swore allegiance to Big brother Weaver, will probably be allied to either Banes or Weaver spirits,
    otherwise, none

    all this to say, vampires can bargain with any type of spirit on an individual basis (exception made of gaian and helios spirits of course),
    there's always spirits that require services in the material world, and vampires are as good a way to get those services as any
    (except for the fact that vampires are backstabbing bastards, but most spirits are too dumb or too simple minded to realize that...lol)

    alliances are more difficult,
    it's already difficult for Garou and Kuei-Jin, despite all the means they have at their disposal,
    for Cainites, it's even more difficult, due to the difficulties of accessing the umbra, their lack of spiritual identity, their disruption of the tapestry,
    and because allying with spirits is already risky and unpredictable, and vampires don't like risky and unpredictable
    Last edited by Pleiades; 06-11-2019, 07:14 AM.

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  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    I'd probably compromise. Its generally BEST to use it in your domain, you've had time to bend all the spirits in line there. You probably don't have a whole bunch of Garou nearby or mages or what have you.. Once you are out in the world bending the way of the spirit i'd argue this will get the attention of others eventually, whether its other supernatural beings or another Koldun(Remember Koldun are SUPER territorial now). This is something his character will know so tell him each time he has a chance of getting something attention.. something he doesn't like.
    Yes, I'd always tell him. Specially because at the moment the coterie is dealing with an all-powerful Koldun and I'm pretty sure the player is going to try to offer a deal with the spirits of the Koldun's domain. I'm still thinking about how will they answer his offer

    Leave a comment:

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