Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Who is Karsh and who is Jürgen?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Who is Karsh and who is Jürgen?

    I mean, of course I know him since I read Children of the Night many winters ago, but what I mean is his origins. Some claim he is Qarakh, others claim he and Jalan-Aajav are the same or were created by the same being using an advanced Protean power and those who have read the Dark Ages: Gangrel Clan Novel know that a cainite named Aajav was Qarakh's brother and sire etc. Am I missing something? Were any (or all) of these rumours ever confirmed by White Wolf?

    What about Jürgen von Verden (the main character in the Dark Ages: Ventrue Clan Novel?) Was he really destroyed later or is he Hardestadt, the younger?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    I mean, of course I know him since I read Children of the Night many winters ago, but what I mean is his origins. Some claim he is Qarakh, others claim he and Jalan-Aajav are the same or were created by the same being using an advanced Protean power and those who have read the Dark Ages: Gangrel Clan Novel know that a cainite named Aajav was Qarakh's brother and sire etc. Am I missing something? Were any (or all) of these rumours ever confirmed by White Wolf?

    What about Jürgen von Verden (the main character in the Dark Ages: Ventrue Clan Novel?) Was he really destroyed later or is he Hardestadt, the younger?
    Justin Achilli was asked straight up at a convention and he said more or less, "It's whatever works for your campaign."

    I believe the implication is also that Jurgen was Vicisstituded by some poor Tzimisce prisoner into being identical to his sire and possibly brainwashed as well. The question isn't so much whether he's Jurgen or not but how much of Jurgen was left in Hardestadt the Younger.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

    Comment


    • #3
      If you want to know how I would handle it:

      1. Karsh and Jalan are seperate: They're both 5th Generation Gangrel from the same sire and look a lot alike (Clancy Brown's Kurgen) but are otherwise unrelated. They've actually spread the rumor they're one in the same themselves because they find it hilarious. They also look almost identical because they're projecting a fake persona via Obfuscate since their true forms are horribly scarred by the Beast, frenzies, and hundreds of aggravated injuries that never quite healed right. Neither of them have an especial hatred of one another but don't have a fondness either. Both are simply warriors for the sake of warring.

      2. Jurgen is a story of tragedy: When Hardestadt the Elder was assasinated by Tyler, Jurgen had already pissed off a massive number of Ventrue Elders and was dragged off in chains to a torture chamber for execution. Instead, he was Dominated by the 5th Generation there (Mithras is a possibility but I doubt he cared) into forgetting who he was and made a puppet to set the Camarilla up. It was really Rafael de Corazon's baby anyway with Hardestadt there merely to add some prestige as well as a Ventrue rubber stamp.

      Here's the thing, though: the Jyhad takes its tole. Hardestadt the Younger was meant to be a puppet but gradually each of his strings broke as his masters were killed by the Sabbat, Inquisitors, or his fellow Ventrue. By the time the Convention of Thorns rolled around, he was already aware of what he was but there was little left of the brave and honorable warrior he once was. The rot of a corrupt and decadent Ventrue power player had set in as had the casual corruption of the original Hardestadt.

      By the Modern Nights, he knows (vaguely) who he was but he's all but unrecognizable.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        If you want to know how I would handle it:

        1. Karsh and Jalan are seperate: They're both 5th Generation Gangrel from the same sire and look a lot alike (Clancy Brown's Kurgen) but are otherwise unrelated. They've actually spread the rumor they're one in the same themselves because they find it hilarious. They also look almost identical because they're projecting a fake persona via Obfuscate since their true forms are horribly scarred by the Beast, frenzies, and hundreds of aggravated injuries that never quite healed right. Neither of them have an especial hatred of one another but don't have a fondness either. Both are simply warriors for the sake of warring.

        2. Jurgen is a story of tragedy: When Hardestadt the Elder was assasinated by Tyler, Jurgen had already pissed off a massive number of Ventrue Elders and was dragged off in chains to a torture chamber for execution. Instead, he was Dominated by the 5th Generation there (Mithras is a possibility but I doubt he cared) into forgetting who he was and made a puppet to set the Camarilla up. It was really Rafael de Corazon's baby anyway with Hardestadt there merely to add some prestige as well as a Ventrue rubber stamp.

        Here's the thing, though: the Jyhad takes its tole. Hardestadt the Younger was meant to be a puppet but gradually each of his strings broke as his masters were killed by the Sabbat, Inquisitors, or his fellow Ventrue. By the time the Convention of Thorns rolled around, he was already aware of what he was but there was little left of the brave and honorable warrior he once was. The rot of a corrupt and decadent Ventrue power player had set in as had the casual corruption of the original Hardestadt.

        By the Modern Nights, he knows (vaguely) who he was but he's all but unrecognizable.

        Very interesting. But what about Qarakh? Would he in your opinion be Karsh or Jalan-Aajav or both?
        Another funny thing in Karsh's character's sheet in Children of the Night is his physical atributes description: Karsh swings his sword and enemies fall; people who have touched him claim his skin has acquired the strenght of diamonds ... now THIS is what badass mean

        Comment


        • #5
          Your theory of Jürgen is very interesting, but I doubt Mithras would be involved, he never liked this camarilla thing very much lol , but in any way Rafael de Corazon could have done it himself.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post

            Very interesting. But what about Qarakh? Would he in your opinion be Karsh or Jalan-Aajav or both?
            I'm inclined to think Quarakh is neither but the childe of Jalan. As a result, he is one of the few people who knows the "truth."

            Another funny thing in Karsh's character's sheet in Children of the Night is his physical atributes description: Karsh swings his sword and enemies fall; people who have touched him claim his skin has acquired the strenght of diamonds ... now THIS is what badass mean
            Yes, yes it is.

            Your theory of Jürgen is very interesting, but I doubt Mithras would be involved, he never liked this camarilla thing very much lol , but in any way Rafael de Corazon could have done it himself.
            I merely mention Mithras because Hardestadt the Elder's sire is unknown and there's not that many 4th Generation Ventrue in Great Britain (where Hardestadt was killed by Patricia Bollingbrook).

            Mithras is not always particularly picky about who he Embraces, so I'm inclined to think that the original Hardestadt was the childe of the ancient Ventrue Prince of London. Hardestadt originated in Modern Bavaria and it's possible that he wasn't killed in England, I could be wrong.

            Another possible sire of Hardestadt the Elder is Erik Eigermann (and he is probably the likeliest candidate).

            I'm inclined to assume that Rafael didn't do it because this strikes me as a Ventrue internal matter, though I fully believe the Founders might know the truth of Hardestadt's identity--a secret that almost no one but Hardestadt the Younger himself would care about.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

            Comment


            • #7
              I go with Karsh has a fugue state where he doesn't realize he splits his time between the Cammy and Sabbat under different Identities.

              And I am a fan of Jurgen not being slain by Hardstadt the Elder, but he took up the name of Hardstadt after the first was assassinated. As the chapter fiction implied Hardstat seemed to selectively groom his Childer to have the same look as him, maybe aided through Elder Dominate powers.


              It is a time for great deeds!

              Comment


              • #8
                Jim Kiley, who wrote Wind from the East and the revised Gangrel clanbook, once told me that he'd presumed one had tried to diablerize the other only to have both fighting for control of the body.


                What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                  Jim Kiley, who wrote Wind from the East and the revised Gangrel clanbook, once told me that he'd presumed one had tried to diablerize the other only to have both fighting for control of the body.

                  That's an interesting theory, as Qarakh did indeed diablerize his sire whose name is Aajav in the Dark Ages Gangrel Clan Novel. So it could be that they are fighting for control over the body, but at the same time this makes things even more complicated when one realize Qarakh also diablerized Alexander of Paris, so there would be quite a mess inside his head

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                    I go with Karsh has a fugue state where he doesn't realize he splits his time between the Cammy and Sabbat under different Identities.

                    And I am a fan of Jurgen not being slain by Hardstadt the Elder, but he took up the name of Hardstadt after the first was assassinated. As the chapter fiction implied Hardstat seemed to selectively groom his Childer to have the same look as him, maybe aided through Elder Dominate powers.

                    Another interesting view regarding Karsh and the state of his mind. I also fell in love with Jürgen after reading the Dark Ages Ventrue Clan Novel, so I would also prefer him to be Hardestadt the Younger rather than being destroyed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "...not that many 4th Generation Ventrue in Great Britain"

                      It's pretty much Mithras and Tiamat. Both of whom feed near exclusively on Kindred. Either is a likely candidate.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Most likely Hardestadt the Elder, given his germanic origins was embraced by Eigermann.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The tact I plan to take with my ongoing TC game is this. It was critically important to the chronicle, until the point the player who had opted to play one of Jurgen's childer decided to switch out for a Torrie. Makes my job a lot easier, though.

                          Hardestadt didn't kill Jurgen. A quick and painless Final Death was too good and dignified for the wayward childe. Nope, Hardestadt decided instead to keep Jurgen locked in the dungeon, fed on a steady diet of "bad" vitae, fully blood bound, and constantly kept on the verge of torpor between starvation, Domination, and good old fashioned torture. But, Hardestadt was always diligent in making sure, through hook or crook, Jurgen never forgot who he was, what his role was to be, and how and why he failed his sire.

                          So, a century later, Tyler finds Jurgen's pathetic ass in the dungeon. Naturally, Jurgen is pissed, and makes a deal with Tyler to help her get revenge on Hardestadt in exchange for freedom. Jurgen, being Jurgen, proceeds to double-cross Tyler the nanosecond she eats Hardestadt, claiming Hardestadt's identity and domains for his own.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
                            The tact I plan to take with my ongoing TC game is this. It was critically important to the chronicle, until the point the player who had opted to play one of Jurgen's childer decided to switch out for a Torrie. Makes my job a lot easier, though.

                            Hardestadt didn't kill Jurgen. A quick and painless Final Death was too good and dignified for the wayward childe. Nope, Hardestadt decided instead to keep Jurgen locked in the dungeon, fed on a steady diet of "bad" vitae, fully blood bound, and constantly kept on the verge of torpor between starvation, Domination, and good old fashioned torture. But, Hardestadt was always diligent in making sure, through hook or crook, Jurgen never forgot who he was, what his role was to be, and how and why he failed his sire.

                            So, a century later, Tyler finds Jurgen's pathetic ass in the dungeon. Naturally, Jurgen is pissed, and makes a deal with Tyler to help her get revenge on Hardestadt in exchange for freedom. Jurgen, being Jurgen, proceeds to double-cross Tyler the nanosecond she eats Hardestadt, claiming Hardestadt's identity and domains for his own.
                            Ohh interesting! It seems much more viable that a pup like Tyler took out Hardstadt with stupid Flintlocks if Jurgen was helping secretly!


                            It is a time for great deeds!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              Ohh interesting! It seems much more viable that a pup like Tyler took out Hardstadt with stupid Flintlocks if Jurgen was helping secretly!
                              The pistol thing (would have been matchlocks, not flintlocks) happened at the Convention of Thorns. But that aside, Tyler using gunpowder weapons and killing vampires in 1394, even potentially by dealing aggravated is not quite as implausible as it first seems. Fire lances and derivative weapons are known to have been in use in Europe by the late 14th Century.
                              Last edited by Theodrim; 06-14-2019, 01:49 AM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X