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Who is Karsh and who is Jürgen?

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  • #16
    I really doubt that Qarakh is Jalan/Karsh since the ritual used on him by Deverra bind him to Livonian territory forever.

    And Jurgen being Hardestadt the Younger does not make sense, they are extremely different in personality. The only reason I find him to ever change towards Hardestadt's mindset is the death of Rosamund of Islington. There's also the difference in stats on, Hardestadt's are in Last Supper and Blood & Fire and every description of what Jurgen could do, specially his telepathy powers described in Dark Ages revised, I believe Hardestadt/Jurgen is an idea attempting to get into canon since Beckett's Jyhad Diary but I doubt it to be the original intention of 2nd edition and Dark Ages first edition.

    - Saga

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Saga View Post
      I really doubt that Qarakh is Jalan/Karsh since the ritual used on him by Deverra bind him to Livonian territory forever.

      And Jurgen being Hardestadt the Younger does not make sense, they are extremely different in personality. The only reason I find him to ever change towards Hardestadt's mindset is the death of Rosamund of Islington. There's also the difference in stats on, Hardestadt's are in Last Supper and Blood & Fire and every description of what Jurgen could do, specially his telepathy powers described in Dark Ages revised, I believe Hardestadt/Jurgen is an idea attempting to get into canon since Beckett's Jyhad Diary but I doubt it to be the original intention of 2nd edition and Dark Ages first edition.

      - Saga

      Yeah, Deverra's ritual is surely something to keep in mind, though I'm not sure how long "forever" is supposed to mean in the context lol. As for Jürgen being Hardestadt, it would certainly be an interesting thing, but yes Jürgen's description and Hardestadt the Younger character sheet doesn't match much as Jürgen used his telepathy quite often in the Dark Ages Ventrue Clan Novel. As for Rosamund d' Islington, I didn't know she was destroyed. When did that happen?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post


        Yeah, Deverra's ritual is surely something to keep in mind, though I'm not sure how long "forever" is supposed to mean in the context lol. As for Jürgen being Hardestadt, it would certainly be an interesting thing, but yes Jürgen's description and Hardestadt the Younger character sheet doesn't match much as Jürgen used his telepathy quite often in the Dark Ages Ventrue Clan Novel. As for Rosamund d' Islington, I didn't know she was destroyed. When did that happen?
        Rosamund was never mentioned again after Dark Ages revised. It was my theory given the study case of Jurgen/Hardestadt the Younger that her death would be the only thing that might snap him into how Hardestadt the Younger behaves in the modern era.

        - Saga

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Saga View Post

          Rosamund was never mentioned again after Dark Ages revised. It was my theory given the study case of Jurgen/Hardestadt the Younger that her death would be the only thing that might snap him into how Hardestadt the Younger behaves in the modern era.

          - Saga

          I see your point. In any case such a thing as her death would surely affect his character as a whole. There are many characters from Dark Ages who are never mentioned again, like Julia Antasia the Roman Ventrue Methusaleh, Gotzon, Lotharius, Jürgen, Shaagra and many others. At least these ones I mentioned I believe should have their future mentioned as they were not only immensely powerful but also played key roles and their destructions would certainly be important ocurrence in the Cainite History.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post


            I see your point. In any case such a thing as her death would surely affect his character as a whole. There are many characters from Dark Ages who are never mentioned again, like Julia Antasia the Roman Ventrue Methusaleh, Gotzon, Lotharius, Jürgen, Shaagra and many others. At least these ones I mentioned I believe should have their future mentioned as they were not only immensely powerful but also played key roles and their destructions would certainly be important ocurrence in the Cainite History.
            Yeah I agree with you, to know their destinies would be interesting. I do know that Gotzon was to appear in the first version of Darkening Sky but the original write up was lost (and the later rewritten release wasn't plotted on Gotzon's reason for the release of the Cry that Slays Night).

            Julia Antasia is probably in torpor. Lotharius could be Pontifex somewhere in Europe.

            - Saga

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
              I mean, of course I know him since I read Children of the Night many winters ago, but what I mean is his origins. Some claim he is Qarakh, others claim he and Jalan-Aajav are the same or were created by the same being using an advanced Protean power and those who have read the Dark Ages: Gangrel Clan Novel know that a cainite named Aajav was Qarakh's brother and sire etc. Am I missing something? Were any (or all) of these rumours ever confirmed by White Wolf?

              What about Jürgen von Verden (the main character in the Dark Ages: Ventrue Clan Novel?) Was he really destroyed later or is he Hardestadt, the younger?

              Bluntly? That's all out of control late developers getting their hands on characters they knew nothing about, Jalan-Aajav and Karsh both originated (along with a bunch of old standbys like Vasantanesa, Gratiano, Montano, Tyler, Durga-Syn, Lambach Ruthven & others) in a book called Children of the Inquisition, back in '92. Jalan-Aajav was a minor officer in the forces of Genghis Khan, while Karsh was a janissary general in the service of Murad IV, about 4 centuries later. Just that goes to show how much marty stu pet NPC insertion and random retconning does into the snowball of dementia that has become the 3rd ed/Dark Ages version of their stories. Not even going in how they are described with quite different personalities and styles - and the whole ludricousness of the "a methuselah hiding behind them both" subplot/conspiracy theory conflating them - to boot.
              Last edited by Baaldam; 06-15-2019, 01:38 PM.

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              • #22
                All I know is that I'm glad David Niall Wilson is editing the Dark Ages Clan Novels now for this to be once more available to people.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


                  Bluntly? That's all out of control late developers getting their hands on characters they knew nothing about, Jalan-Aajav and Karsh both originated (along with a bunch of old standbys like Vasantanesa, Gratiano, Montano, Tyler, Durga-Syn, Lambach Ruthven & others) in a book called Children of the Inquisition, back in '92. Jalan-Aajav was a minor officer in the forces of Genghis Khan, while Karsh was a janissary general in the service of Murad IV, about 4 centuries later. Just that goes to show how much marty stu pet NPC insertion and random retconning does into the snowball of dementia that has become the 3rd ed/Dark Ages version of their stories. Not even going in how they are described with quite different personalities and styles - and the whole ludricousness of the "a methuselah hiding behind them both" subplot/conspiracy theory conflating them - to boot.
                  Almost as ludicrous as an entire Illuminati's worth of vampires hiding in every major city.



                  Embrace the crazy, friend!


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Almost as ludicrous as an entire Illuminati's worth of vampires hiding in every major city.



                    Embrace the crazy, friend!

                    I embrace the early one, where they both were separate characters, with diffferent personalities, styles and faults of their own, instead of yet another elusive methuselah sprang of rashly thought out jokes with stat blocks in Children of Night.

                    Also replaced all Durga Syn appearances in Giovanni Chronicles with Vasantanesa - and Ambrogino with Genevra, what helps make part 4 into an actual epilogue of the series, instead of a random storyline that just happens to have Mariana and Cappadocius' cameos... Yes, old fart blasphemy, but that's how i roll.

                    [Also have the habit of "depowering" a number of canon NPCs with their inflated generations & stats - but that's something i do because how badly written, or inflated out of excessive marysueism, more than a few of those can be, specially between late 2e to 3e. YMMV]
                    Last edited by Baaldam; 06-15-2019, 05:56 PM.

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                    • #25
                      A disclaimer: there's no clear answer to such questions. Some authors may have intended things to go one way or another at some point but today the gameline leaves "the truth" deliberately up to the storyteller of any given chronicle to determine.

                      That said here's my take:

                      Hardestadt: after Tyler destroyed Hardestadt the elder, his servants enacted a protocol he developed just in case he was killed. One of his progeny had been fleshcrafted and mindwiped to take his place so no-one could claim triumph upon him. That childer was un-staked and welcomed as the new Hardestadt (now "the younger" for the select few in the know). His name before this happened used to be Lord Jürgen von Verden.

                      Karsh: Karsh is a fake. Jalan Aajav is a fake. Both identities belong to the same vampire whose name was Qarakh, a mighty gangrel warrior who killed and diablerized the 4th generation Ventrue Alexander of Paris thanks to blood magic and the spirit-god Telyavel. Qarakh was bound to the land of Livonia... until the pagan witches that helped him were exterminated and the faith in the ancient spirit of the land was estinguished. Only then Qarakh bond to the land was broken and he roamed the wilderness for decades in a state of semi-coherent frenzy. In the end he was tracked down and captured by two extremely powerful cainites who knew about him and Alexander. They blood bound him and made him into their servant, crafting the dual identity of Karsh and Jalan Aajav to infiltrate both the Camarilla and the Sabbat. It worked for centuries, until the machinations of the antediluvians caused the slave ring these ancient and powerful infernalists used to gain their sustenance to be discovered. Karsh was sent to deal with the witnesses tie up any loose ends left, which caused him to kill the former justicar Don Cerro and to try to kill Theo Bell and Xaviar. In the end he was stacked and plunged into the ocean's depths while his former masters were tracked down and destroyed by an alliance of Sabbat and Camarilla operatives led by Bell himself. Several cainites were met final death before the infernalists were finally put down, and unfortunately Xaviar happened to be among them.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Saga View Post

                        Rosamund was never mentioned again after Dark Ages revised. It was my theory given the study case of Jurgen/Hardestadt the Younger that her death would be the only thing that might snap him into how Hardestadt the Younger behaves in the modern era.

                        - Saga
                        I'll take your word for it, I didn't have much experience with Jurgen, but I loved the character, and I just liked the idea he survived. I think its was just a natural extrapolation from both of them being Hardstadt's two most famous children. And what do you think of that Chapter fiction in revised with all the Identical Hardstadt childer? Do you think we still have such a brood? Do you think Jan Paterzoon could have similar twins? Do you think Hardstadt looks like Jurgen? I don't remember a description of what Hardstadt actually looks like, I only remember a description of what he wore and how he was uncomfortable having to get used to blackberries.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                          I'll take your word for it, I didn't have much experience with Jurgen, but I loved the character, and I just liked the idea he survived. I think its was just a natural extrapolation from both of them being Hardstadt's two most famous children. And what do you think of that Chapter fiction in revised with all the Identical Hardstadt childer? Do you think we still have such a brood? Do you think Jan Paterzoon could have similar twins? Do you think Hardstadt looks like Jurgen? I don't remember a description of what Hardstadt actually looks like, I only remember a description of what he wore and how he was uncomfortable having to get used to blackberries.

                          That reunion of Hardestadt the Elder childer was probably one of the best fiction moments! I liked a lot Jurgen from the Dark Ages novels and due to him being so different to his sire is kind of shocking for me to him become Hardestadt the Younger, but it would make sense of something triggered him.

                          I used the Directorate a lot in one chronicle and since there is one Mme d'Excavalier mentioned in 2ed, I take that she was one of Hardestadt the Elder's childer in such VtMr meeting. She is second only to Datura, Lodin's sire, who presides the North American Directorate from Veracruz.

                          - Saga

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            ...Jurgen had already pissed off a massive number of Ventrue Elders...
                            What had he done to piss them off so badly? My memory is foggy.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                              What had he done to piss them off so badly? My memory is foggy.

                              Well, his request got Alexander (former) Princeps Lutetia (embraced 700 BC in Athens, aprox) killed.

                              Although I doubt Alexander ever got to influence his bloodline through Dominate 9 discipline power (at least those who were still undead beyond his childish rages), many elders can use leverage against the lineage of Monarch Hardestadt in favor if played right. If I were an influential Ventrue with the right information, I would.

                              - Saga

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                                What had he done to piss them off so badly? My memory is foggy.
                                It's not actually known as there's considerable speculation about it ranging from politics to the fact he fell from the Road of Kings.

                                My inclination is that Jurgen was scapegoated for the entire disaster that was the clusterfuck in Transylvania. There's no way Jurgen could have dealt with the Mongols, the Tzimisce, the alliance with the Tremere, and the Shadow Lords. Jurgen never was able to beat Vladimir Rustovitch either, let alone the other vast number of problems in the region. It was an impossible mission but Elders do not tolerate failure.

                                And yes, dude helped destroy a 4th generation Ventrue to get his Toreador mistress.

                                But the Ventrue being as they are probably considered that a bonus.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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