Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

About Antonius' Denial

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Herr Meister
    started a topic About Antonius' Denial

    About Antonius' Denial

    So I have always wondered about this ritual, because it looks like it could be used as a VERY powerful low level ritual (what is rare when talking about Necromancy/Mortis...). Does this ritual mean that the cainite cannot under any* circunstance be destroyed while it's in effect?

    This is the ritual description:

    Antonius’s Denial
    A prodigy of Augustus Giovani’s blood, called
    Antonius Giovani, crafted this wicked rite early in the
    bloodline’s studies. It denies death to a victim, albeit
    temporarily. It does not, however, deny pain. The ritual
    requires the vampire temporarily sacrifice a dot (not a
    point) of Willpower, which only returns the night after he
    chooses to end the effects. Upon casting this ritual, the
    victim gains a number of phantom Incapacitated Health
    Levels equal to the casting successes. The character cannot
    be Incapacitated, only Crippled, no matter the damage
    he takes. The victim cannot heal these phantom Health
    levels under any circumstance, and if the ritual ends, any
    wounds in those boxes are added as aggravated damage
    to his normal Health track.


    Now this is a level 2 ritual, from what I understood it could be used as creative mean to completelly avoid destruction in a battle. I've always felt this was really strange for a level 2 ritual, but never quite asked anybody about it, so I'm doing now. What do you think about this is supposed to mean?

    *Of course any circunstance might be up to the storyteller to decide, but I mean by taking actual damage.

  • Illithid
    replied
    Even with problematic wording, it only goes as far as saying you can't be incapacitated.
    It never says that you can't be Killed, so apply the normal rules for damage, and while they can be up and about (on -5 dice pools) if they keep taking a beating. But as it's DA, the damage rules (As confirmed on another current thread) mean that another lethal turns the top box to Agg, so at absolute best, you have twice the health levels before you meet final death. No torpor in between to save you.
    And you can still be staked, or beheaded before that.

    Leave a comment:


  • pang4
    replied
    Interesting counterpoint, though:

    Even IF a person becomes immune to being incapacitated, they still have a few things going against them.

    Wound penalties still apply. That means they have, at best, -5 dice on all their actions.

    Dismemberment is not something you're protected from. Good luck accomplishing anything if your enemy cuts off all your arms and legs...

    Stakes are a wonderful thing. No, you won't die. You will, however, be paralyzed in this box for the next century. Almost as good, and doesn't violate any Traditions ^^

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr Meister
    replied
    "It denies death to a victim, albeit temporarily. It does not, however, deny pain."
    So it was clearly designed to torture a victim. Not to be used on oneself
    Certainly, no doubt about that. It was designied to torture, but nothing stops the necromancer from using it on himself.

    "no matter the damage he takes."
    This contradicts the previous statement of health levels per success. This makes it sound like you could take 20 extra damage and not care.
    Now THAT is the problamatic wording of the ritual what makes it potentially broken.

    "The victim cannot heal these phantom Health
    levels under any circumstance, and if the ritual ends, any
    wounds in those boxes are added as aggravated damage
    to his normal Health track."

    Here is the kicker in my opinion. When the ritual ends you get massive damage as Agg. But it doesn't mention a duration.
    One could fall back to previous rules stating the general duration of a ritual of a certain level, but i can't remember where it's specified.
    That definitely would be a huge problem for the one who uses it as a mean to become "completelly immortal" for some time. He would have to pay heavily for it later.

    But since there is no duration, RAW say that it can be used to make the character immortal (even more so than before).
    And that's exactly what I mean, the RAW means that it basically can be used to make a character completelly "immune to destruction" for some time and surely it has the potential to be REALLY broken on occasion, I certainly wouldn't mind a High Level Necromancy ritual to make one character indestructible for some time, but the main problem is that it's just only a level 2 Ritual that, although certainly designed to torture a victim, one could argue that by the wording of the ritual's description it could definitely be used for the purpose of making someone indestructible for some time in the hands of a "clever/crazy" individual.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aleph
    replied
    Upon casting this ritual, the victim gains a number of phantom Incapacitated Health Levels equal to the casting successes. The character cannot be Incapacitated, only Crippled, no matter the damage he takes.
    I read this as: you cannot be subject to the Incapacitated condition that you usually gain when you're down to your last box but not dead yet. Not as you being unable to die. This is important because the extra Health Levels are "Incapacitated". So, you don't get incapacitated when you're on these extra healt levels nor in the normal Incapacitated health level, but you still can die because dying it's not the same as becoming incapacitated

    Leave a comment:


  • Cadmiumcadamium
    replied
    My 2 cents


    "It denies death to a victim, albeit temporarily. It does not, however, deny pain."
    So it was clearly designed to torture a victim. Not to be used on oneself


    "Upon casting this ritual, the
    victim gains a number of phantom Incapacitated Health
    Levels equal to the casting successes.
    The character cannot
    be Incapacitated, only Crippled,"

    3 Successes equals 3 extra health levels, located between the crippled (-5) and Incapacitated health levels.


    "no matter the damage he takes."
    This contradicts the previous statement of health levels per success. This makes it sound like you could take 20 extra damage and not care.


    "The victim cannot heal these phantom Health
    levels under any circumstance, and if the ritual ends, any
    wounds in those boxes are added as aggravated damage
    to his normal Health track."

    Here is the kicker in my opinion. When the ritual ends you get massive damage as Agg. But it doesn't mention a duration.
    One could fall back to previous rules stating the general duration of a ritual of a certain level, but i can't remember where it's specified.

    IF the ritual ends the character who cast it on himself will be very, very hurt. But since there is no duration, RAW say that it can be used to make the character immortal (even more so than before).



    RAI on the other hand, IMO, is that it's a ritual to be used to torture people, to prolong the agony without granting the sweet release of death. Not to make yourself immune to damage.

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    I take it you can still dismember them to the point of virtual helplessness, like a zombie, but they will stay conscious. So maybe once you go past all the phantom levels they are too damaged to continue with much, maybe crawl and talk, but they don’t die or go unconscious. But not sure just a suggestion. What level is this again?

    It's a level 2 Necromancy ritual, again what worries me is the potential op hidden in the wording of the ritual. Because if "the character cannot be incapacitated, only crippled, no matter the damage it takes" it could be used to make someone nigh indestructible for a night and now that has the potential to be really broken.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eldagusto
    replied
    I take it you can still dismember them to the point of virtual helplessness, like a zombie, but they will stay conscious. So maybe once you go past all the phantom levels they are too damaged to continue with much, maybe crawl and talk, but they don’t die or go unconscious. But not sure just a suggestion. What level is this again?

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr Meister
    replied
    Originally posted by pang4 View Post
    The way I read it, you gain extra health levels after Crippled.

    Par example, I get 3 successes on the ritual acrivation.
    I get hit down to Crippled. Then someone smashes my mouth in again, for 2 damage. Instead of falling to incap and Torpor, the ritual absorbs the damage. I now have 1 "phantom life" left.

    I see, but the part that makes me think this makes the target "immune to destruction" is "[...]the character cannot be incapacitated, only crippled no matter the damage he takes[...]" and the only part of the text that imply something related to the duration of the ritual is "[...] the vampire temporary sacrifices a dot (not a point) of Willpower, which only returns the night after he choses to end the effects[...]" That opens the way to the interpretation I'm writing about.

    Leave a comment:


  • pang4
    replied
    The way I read it, you gain extra health levels after Crippled.

    Par example, I get 3 successes on the ritual acrivation.
    I get hit down to Crippled. Then someone smashes my mouth in again, for 2 damage. Instead of falling to incap and Torpor, the ritual absorbs the damage. I now have 1 "phantom life" left.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X