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  • #16
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    So do you think the Dagda and the Morrigan invented the gods they took the names of or do you think like Mithras they imitated already existent gods?
    By sheer age alone, the Dagda and Morrigan myth (if the etymology of the word is taken from the proto-indoeuropean language from the late neolithic) is far older than Mithras himself. So it's probable that they took the name of the Gods. If he descended from the Mithras' lineage, I must point out that the God belonged to the "Tuatha De Danann" of Irish mythology, while in neo-babylonian cuneiform, scripture contemporary to Mithras ruling times, "daanan" means powerful/godly. I doubt that this would somehow be related to anybody except for someone who came from Mesopotamia to Irish lands.

    Mithras himself wasn't the first "Mithras", there was a Celestial Chorus mage in antiquity before Mithras the vampire who also posed or either actually was the original God, who in turn wasn't either the original Mithras, being that the myth began from Hindu "friend-god Mitra" (loved how he is depicted as "friend-god" by the British Museum experts).

    If anyone knows the truth within WOD, I'd think of Japeth, Anath, ur-Shulgi, Nakhthorheb, Seterpenre, Maatkare, Rayzeel, Marizhavashti Kali, Callisti & Callisto (probably), The Dracon or Balthazar.

    - Saga

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    • #17
      Look at you Flex.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Saga View Post

        By sheer age alone, the Dagda and Morrigan myth (if the etymology of the word is taken from the proto-indoeuropean language from the late neolithic) is far older than Mithras himself. So it's probable that they took the name of the Gods. If he descended from the Mithras' lineage, I must point out that the God belonged to the "Tuatha De Danann" of Irish mythology, while in neo-babylonian cuneiform, scripture contemporary to Mithras ruling times, "daanan" means powerful/godly. I doubt that this would somehow be related to anybody except for someone who came from Mesopotamia to Irish lands.
        Well, by that angle he might as well be a childe of Tiamat, who seems to be more clearly tied to Mesopotamia, unlike Mithras who (beside the name) seems to be of a more undefined provenance. Though, on a little personal aside, must admit i'm not a huge fan of the idea of more elusive methuselahs playing deity just because. If it were my game i would probably ignore the idea of "Dagda as vampire" as a whole.

        Morrigu i might be more amenable to use in this way, though it does make her a "proto-Gangrel as valkyrie" of sorts - maybe mash her up with Black Annis through Obfuscate & other shenanigans. Anyway, it feels better to have something beside "playing deity" to make them evocative, specially in a game where one will already have a major canon NPC such as Mithras with just that kind of schtick.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

          Well, by that angle he might as well be a childe of Tiamat, who seems to be more clearly tied to Mesopotamia, unlike Mithras who (beside the name) seems to be of a more undefined provenance. Though, on a little personal aside, must admit i'm not a huge fan of the idea of more elusive methuselahs playing deity just because. If it were my game i would probably ignore the idea of "Dagda as vampire" as a whole.

          Morrigu i might be more amenable to use in this way, though it does make her a "proto-Gangrel as valkyrie" of sorts - maybe mash her up with Black Annis through Obfuscate & other shenanigans. Anyway, it feels better to have something beside "playing deity" to make them evocative, specially in a game where one will already have a major canon NPC such as Mithras with just that kind of schtick.

          Thought about that one.

          Tiamat was in Rome from 220 BC (aprox) up until 476 AD (aprox). If Dagda was embraced by Tiamat in the British Isles, it had to be after those years.

          On the vampires being gods issue, I agree, I guess the only moments in which such idea can thrive would be in antiquity (old mesopotamian and pre-minoan) or in particular certain cases (like Mithras, Michael and those of the Voivodate). I think that if the story needs it and the players enjoy it, well, go ahead, but I'd mention such cases only to add some flavor to lineages or legends of some fabled artifact owned by some of them.

          - Saga

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Saga View Post


            Thought about that one.

            Tiamat was in Rome from 220 BC (aprox) up until 476 AD (aprox). If Dagda was embraced by Tiamat in the British Isles, it had to be after those years.

            If he was embraced in the British Isles - your own commentary about "daanan" in neo-babylonian cuneiform scripture opens room for the possibility of Dagda as a mesopotamian kindred who came to irish lands and settled in long before that. And Tiamat was already a methuselah at the time of Mithras supposed embrace, more than enough time to make a few childer who went on their own.

            If one desires to play with such a thing, that is.
            Last edited by Baaldam; 06-26-2019, 07:01 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


              If he was embraced in the British Isles - your own commentary about "daanan" in neo-babylonian cuneiform scripture opens room for the possibility of Dagda as a mesopotamian kindred who came to irish lands and settled in long before that. And Tiamat was already a methuselah at the time of Mithras supposed embrace, more than enough time to make a few childer who went on their own.

              If one desires to play with such a thing, that is.
              Yeah, Dagda could been embraced prior Tiamat moving to Rome, that is a possibility, and then taken the identity of the God when he came to Ireland around 500 BC. But I don't think as Dagda being a childe of Tiamat, since she was one of the most cruel vampires in history, just look at how Gotsdam behaves. It could be that his rivalry over Morrigan came from her knowledge of blood magic reminded him of his sire's Enchantment powers... The only possibility I see is that Lantla took over for a short period of time and embraced him to locate a possible place for her to rest in the future (yet the barrow is somewhere near Edinburgh and not in Ireland).

              - Saga

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              • #22
                It's very possible Dagda could be 4th gen a Childe of Veddartha himself.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                  It's very possible Dagda could be 4th gen a Childe of Veddartha himself.

                  Could be, but that is kind of simplistic, no? "Here's a methuselah, who is badass because it's a 4th gen childe of an Ante. Ah, he once played god."
                  I don't know, it feels a bit "boss-making, paint by dots method", using some bit of lore or previous NPC to prop up a character instead of giving actual evocative stuff of its own, though YMMV.

                  Making it - just to run from Saga's comment on etymology and proto-indo-european & cuneiform connections, for a starting hook - an abandoned childe of Tiamat (or some other member of her elusive cabal of vampires who played blood gods, that might or not have included Mithras) that would then strike on its own, doing who knows what in his migrating from Mesopotamia to Western Europe & British Isles, feels more lively and colorful to me.

                  But then i'm also the one who feels the setting has already too many 4th-6th NPCs and feels little remorse with "tweaking" them to my tastes on occasion, so i'm kind of biased from the get go, i guess....
                  Last edited by Baaldam; 07-12-2019, 11:35 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


                    Could be, but that is kind of simplistic, no? "Here's a methuselah, who is badass because it's a 4th gen childe of an Ante. Ah, he once played god."
                    I don't know, it feels a bit "boss-making, paint by dots method", using some bit of lore or previous NPC to prop up a character instead of giving actual evocative stuff of its own, though YMMV.

                    Making it - just to run from Saga's comment on etymology and proto-indo-european & cuneiform connections, for a starting hook - an abandoned childe of Tiamat (or some other member of her elusive cabal of vampires who played blood gods, that might or not have included Mithras) that would then strike on its own, doing who knows what in his migrating from Mesopotamia to Western Europe & British Isles, feels more lively and colorful to me.

                    But then i'm also the one who feels the setting has already too many 4th-6th NPCs and feels little remorse with "tweaking" them to my tastes on occasion, so i'm kind of biased from the get go, i guess....
                    Really though? It’s okay if he’s fifth gen but if he is 4th gen that is out of line? That seems weak...


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

                      Really though? It’s okay if he’s fifth gen but if he is 4th gen that is out of line? That seems weak...

                      Nah. Being 5th or 4th doesn't really matter - he could be 6th or 7th for all i care, generation is imaterial if you don't have particular power or sire in mind for dramatic reasons. In my own games i very rarely use NPCs more potent than 7th-6th gen, because the ones i do use, are as hoary eldritch things that could level cities in the wrong night and circunstances. Not like i need much of that with freqüency.

                      My point was going beyond "badass because of potent blood/one's sire is X" - that's where migrations, wars, intrigue, history or mythology references and such come for fun & profit. Sometimes we just fill a sheet with dots and throw some bit of lore instead of giving something actually particular to the character.

                      Mictlan, Helena, Menele & Tiamat are all pretty distinctive NPCs and only one of these methuselahs is the actual childe of an Ante. Mithras is fun because he claims to be so - but considering he's a vampire who built a cult around being a sun god, it's equally posssible and perfectly in character for it to be a blatant lie on his par and that dubiety is a little bit extra that i love about him.

                      So, my point is - ok, make Dagda a childe of Veddartha and then what? What would one add to his character or a british isles game through this connection?
                      Last edited by Baaldam; 07-13-2019, 12:35 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post


                        Nah. Being 5th or 4th doesn't really matter - he could be 6th or 7th for all i care, generation is imaterial if you don't have particular power or sire in mind for dramatic reasons. In my own games i very rarely use NPCs more potent than 7th-6th gen, because the ones i do use, are as hoary eldritch things that could level cities in the wrong night and circunstances. Not like i need much of that with freqüency.

                        My point was going beyond "badass because of potent blood/one's sire is X" - that's where migrations, wars, intrigue, history or mythology references and such come for fun & profit. Sometimes we just fill a sheet with dots and throw some bit of lore instead of giving something actually particular to the character.

                        Mictlan, Helena, Menele & Tiamat are all pretty distinctive NPCs and only one of these methuselahs is the actual childe of an Ante. Mithras is fun because he claims to be so - but considering he's a vampire who built a cult around being a sun god, it's equally posssible and perfectly in character for it to be a blatant lie on his par and that dubiety is a little bit extra that i love about him.

                        So, my point is - ok, make Dagda a childe of Veddartha and then what? What would one add to his character or a british isles game through this connection?

                        I guess it was pretty clear in Victorian Age London by Night in which his sire is stated as "Ventrue Antediluvian", but it if anyone wish to make that change off the metaplot, certainly, TCII give us enough excuses to do so. Veddartha is 4th generation probably diablerized by Mithras.

                        - Saga

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Saga View Post


                          I guess it was pretty clear in Victorian Age London by Night in which his sire is stated as "Ventrue Antediluvian", but it if anyone wish to make that change off the metaplot, certainly, TCII give us enough excuses to do so. Veddartha is 4th generation probably diablerized by Mithras.

                          - Saga

                          I would say it's more a matter of lore than metaplot, as i'm aware of no setting event that might be dependent on the veracity or falsehood of Mithra's claims in London by Night - and well, statements can be either true or false, but yeah, pretty much that. Any NPC is open to expansion, twists or modification in one's own table, it all depends on the ST's interest and ideas on lore/world-building.
                          Last edited by Baaldam; 07-13-2019, 10:55 AM.

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