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What did the Stars Above want?

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  • What did the Stars Above want?

    I mean, everyone assume that the Stars Above was Saulot. But what was his reasoning for influencing the Tremere into turning themselves into vampires using Tzimisce's blood? Was there ever an official explanation? Was Saulot tired of the Salubri and wanted a new clan for him? Did he want to somehow control Tzimisce? I don't recall any official explanation for his actions, beyond influencing Tremere to diablerize him, but even so, why? What's your opinion on the matter? If there's any official explanation that I'm failing to remember I'd be very glad if someone could post here.

  • #2
    Officially he didn’t convince them to become Vampires, they did that on their own. And they obtained the wareabouts of multiple Antediluvians, and decided to try their luck on Saulot as his torpid form was the least guarded and they thought he was a softy.

    What Saulot did do however was decide he would let himself be eaten to suborn the Clan from within Tremeres body but that took centuries longer then he planned.

    No official statement on his plans as each explaination has been noncanon scenarios. One in the Gehenna book was he was going to use the clan for a ritual using the true name of humanity obtained from the mapping of the Human Genome and the Mormon Ancestry records to purge all vampires.

    Another suggested idea is he is trying to beat the Yama Kings to the throne of the Demon Emperor so he can control the Sixth Age.

    Some people thought it was to aid him in researching and developing Thaumaturgy.


    It is a time for great deeds!

    Comment


    • #3
      I think trying to definitely say Saulot is good or evil is less interesting than the mystery.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
        I mean, everyone assume that the Stars Above was Saulot. But what was his reasoning for influencing the Tremere into turning themselves into vampires using Tzimisce's blood? Was there ever an official explanation? Was Saulot tired of the Salubri and wanted a new clan for him? Did he want to somehow control Tzimisce? I don't recall any official explanation for his actions, beyond influencing Tremere to diablerize him, but even so, why? What's your opinion on the matter? If there's any official explanation that I'm failing to remember I'd be very glad if someone could post here.


        Saulot had a lot of stakes involved in Transylvania: Samiel lead a war against Yorak and Tzimisce and Saulot pushed Zelios into creating a magical web to seal Kupala. It seems like in his personal Jyhad Tzimisce is a major concern.

        Even more by creating the Tremere Saulot gained access to the most powerful Thaumaturge in existence, and it is hinted by Lair of the Hidden and Beckett Jyhad Diary that Saulot might have used a more refined version of the Thauma ritual Platonic Split (Lair of the Hidden page 143) to finally get rid of his P'o, his beast (BJD page 300).
        So now the two Saulot are free to search for their personal ascension: the P'o will try to claim the mantle of the Demon Emperor, while the Hun will pursue Golconda unhindered by the beast.


        In general it seems that many aspects of Saulot might be read through the Dharmas of Kindred of the East, since he was the first student of the Grand Arhat Xue.

        Saulot creating the Baali to show them true evil is very Devil Tiger

        Despite misconceptions, the followers of this path are not demon-worshippers. Oh, they appear to be, to the unenlightened observer: Devil-Tiger temples crawl with atrocities — from skewered babies to maimed slaves—and ring with obscene chants and discor dant music. Unclean spirits frequent such places, and the Chi that boils in Devil-Tiger dragon nests is corrosive and foul. The outsiders miss the point, however: Devil-Tigers do not worship
        devils, they want to become devils. And that is a far greater purpose than servitude.


        Saulot crusading to destroy the Baali and purging the world from the evil is very Resplendent Crane

        When you lose control, make amends. The Demon
        guides you but does not own you.
        When injustice or corruption appears, correct it to
        the best of your ability.
        Be generous to the worthy, defend the weak and
        instruct the young and errant.
        When the wicked will not listen to reason, straighten
        them as you were once straightened.

        Saulot creating the Baali and then destroying them, and creating the Salubri and then letting them die, just as pushing for the creation of the Tremere and then leave them in a sea of shit is very Thousand Whispers

        Live 1,000 lifetimes, each one different from the last.
        Learn what you can from each life.
        Change as much as possible between breaths.
        If you grow too close to something, kill it. It will only hinder you
        Turn your back on each life as you leave it.

        The Whispering Way is the rarest of Dharmas, and with good reason: It's the hardest to maintain. Kuei-jin are neither
        balanced nor temperate. To offset their destructive natures, Whispers cultivate the Broken Mask technique — a multiplepersonality
        path to enlightenment. While most people cling to their identities, the Rootless Trees take on different personas,
        then kill them off when all lessons appear to have been learned. Since most lives tend to be full-time affairs, many vampires take on one or two personas at once, then stage tragic deaths and enter new roles. Immortal as they are, the Whispers can experience the full range of human perspective and thus rise above any single view


        And it can't be denied that in the Tremere Saulot might had seen something very akin to the Song of Shadow

        three.
        Aware of their immortality, these Kuei-jin share a thirst for
        discovery. From libraries and mass media, they gather stories about the
        living world; from the spirits, they collect memories and news. To
        bind the two together, the vampires record their insights in works of
        art or scholarship. The Second Breath stimulates their curiosity,
        and the hunger to learn rivals the hunger to consume.
        Learning seems to be the only passion these creatures have.
        In all other matters, Bone Flowers seem distant and precise.
        Every fact must be dissected for significance, and each event
        becomes a symbol for a much grander thing. This curiosity
        brings them into the company of other shen; there, they act
        as ambassadors, mystics and lorekeepers.
        Last edited by Undead rabbit; 06-26-2019, 08:29 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          The stars above (at night)
          wanted to be big and bright!

          Undead Rabbit has a good read on it. I will simply add that no one in the WoD gets what they want, and all the plans and schemes fall apart and go south. It happened for Tremere the mage, it happened for Cappadocious and Augustus Giovanni, it happened for Tzimisce and for Kapula, and so on. Whatever Saulot had in mind for the Tremere probably didn't go the way he hoped, and it would be a mistake (on our part) to try to read his failure as his goal and part of his master plan.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
            The stars above (at night)
            wanted to be big and bright!

            Undead Rabbit has a good read on it. I will simply add that no one in the WoD gets what they want, and all the plans and schemes fall apart and go south. It happened for Tremere the mage, it happened for Cappadocious and Augustus Giovanni, it happened for Tzimisce and for Kapula, and so on. Whatever Saulot had in mind for the Tremere probably didn't go the way he hoped, and it would be a mistake (on our part) to try to read his failure as his goal and part of his master plan.

            But at least from what is implied from the situation pre-v5, Saulot was in a very comfortable position compared to Tremere and the other Antediluvians. As for Tzimisce, it's another mystery, in some scenarios it seems that he is actually the most powerful Antediluvian as he is capable of controlling anyone who has Vicissitude or tasted the "tainted" blood and he was able to mask his destruction, take control of Lugoj, try to take control of Tremere's body and at the same time become a monster in the NY sewers! On the other end of the spectrum Capadocious and Augustus Giovanni seemed to have failed at almost everything they have tried to do. Lasombra is never too much mentioned and the other Antediluvians are even more mysterious as we never know what Ennoia, Arikel, Veddartha/Nergal (or whoever is the Ventrue Antediluvian) are up to. It seems to me that, at least according to the published material, Saulot and The Eldest are by far the most eficcient of the Antediluvians and the others are either quite inneficient or rarely ever mentioned.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
              I mean, everyone assume that the Stars Above was Saulot. But what was his reasoning for influencing the Tremere into turning themselves into vampires using Tzimisce's blood? Was there ever an official explanation? Was Saulot tired of the Salubri and wanted a new clan for him? Did he want to somehow control Tzimisce? I don't recall any official explanation for his actions, beyond influencing Tremere to diablerize him, but even so, why? What's your opinion on the matter? If there's any official explanation that I'm failing to remember I'd be very glad if someone could post here.
              Creating the "Tremere" clan gave Saulot a new bloodline to play with, a susceptible host to diablerise him (That would grant him extra Blood Magic) and a tool to deal with the old bloodlines (Salubri) that he'd created

              ​I think that the Dharma approach as wonderfully detailed by Undead rabbit is a fantastic theory that matches well with the separation of Saulot in to two beings in BJD.

              Or it could just be that he explored the other ways of surpassing his vampiric limitations and is disposing of them as he moves on.

              As to "The Stars Above" reference, I don't see any other entity that makes sense other than possibly, at a stretch
              - The Stars above being the mind of Tzimesce, the Root of All being Kupala (His Beast) and Viscisitude being the body;they all work together to create a new clan/bloodline that will be host to the Viscisitude gateway that ends up letting Tzimesce destroy Saulot.
              But I admit that's left field as far as theories go

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                Creating the "Tremere" clan gave Saulot a new bloodline to play with, a susceptible host to diablerise him (That would grant him extra Blood Magic) and a tool to deal with the old bloodlines (Salubri) that he'd created

                ​I think that the Dharma approach as wonderfully detailed by Undead rabbit is a fantastic theory that matches well with the separation of Saulot in to two beings in BJD.

                Or it could just be that he explored the other ways of surpassing his vampiric limitations and is disposing of them as he moves on.

                As to "The Stars Above" reference, I don't see any other entity that makes sense other than possibly, at a stretch
                - The Stars above being the mind of Tzimesce, the Root of All being Kupala (His Beast) and Viscisitude being the body;they all work together to create a new clan/bloodline that will be host to the Viscisitude gateway that ends up letting Tzimesce destroy Saulot.
                But I admit that's left field as far as theories go

                Yes I also like the idea that Saulot used the Tremere as his "new clan" and used them to hunt his old clan that he may consider a faillure (I actually used this idea in one of my chronicles more than ten years ago and it was interesting because one of the PCs was a Salubri and he was quite disturbed to find out in the end of the story that Saulot was even worse than the Tremere as the Tremere were only his puppets and he was the real mastermind behind the massacre of the Salubri).

                Undead rabbit theory is marvelous indeed and helps in our effort to understand the puzzle that is Saulot/Zao-Lat. As for "The Stars Above", I've always felt it was clearly Saulot and not Tzimisce. The entity contacted many Tremere before they turned themselves into vampires (as is stated in House of Tremere )and that's why I asked if WW had ever given an "official" reason for that. In any case I feel that most here agree with me that Saulot used the Tremere as his puppets and perhaps was even the one behind the destruction of the Salubri. It paints him as a very evil creature indeed, but it's a very interesting picture nonetheless.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
                  As for Tzimisce, it's another mystery...
                  When I mentioned Tzimsice, I meant his implied deal with Kupala. Arguably the subtext is that Tzimisce entered into a deal with the demon as a means to gain power, and this worked in the form of Vicissitude. But it also means Tzimisce (both the Founder and the entire clan) is functionally demon-tainted. Likewise, would Kupala have been bound, against its will, if it had not entered into that deal with Tzimisce?

                  In any case, I like the idea that no one gets what they want in the World of Darkness and everyone's plans fall apart. This is true for neonates and this is true for the blood gods.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    I think trying to definitely say Saulot is good or evil is less interesting than the mystery.
                    I agree. I prefer a published version where each individual ST can make the determination for their chronicles (assuming this is an important enough question in one of their chronicles to answer).

                    A big appeal to the World of Darkness to me is that of mystery and player discovery. So I am drawn to the earliest versions of the game when these mysteries were first presented, and dislike the later editions when these mysteries were systematically answered. I prefer STs to allow me to discover their own interpretation and version of events.

                    I prefer the idea that each edition, rather than building on canon chronologically, is in fact a separate "take" on the World that does not invalidate what came before it, but gives tools to the ST to tell the stories that they want.

                    Otherwise I simply could not deal with all the dreck.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
                      It seems to me that, at least according to the published material, Saulot and The Eldest are by far the most eficcient of the Antediluvians and the others are either quite inneficient or rarely ever mentioned.
                      It's mostly just that they have plot books describing their plans, and most other's don't....

                      Saulot succeeded where he did because he kept things sneaky, never monologued a plot that anyone would want to foil.
                      Tzimesce "Succeeded" Because it told everyone what they needed (or wanted) to know, and that got them invested in a way they couldn't back out of.
                      Cappadocius failed because his plan required willing members and sharing info, the info got out (Or he succeeded in a plan and never intended to do what he published that he was trying to do, who knows)
                      Lasombra succeeded in ascending the vampiric form, but there's not a lot of fuss about it because he didn't want to have fanfare, his clan would come looking for him.

                      Tremere kinda succeeded. He outlived what his former magic would have allowed him to. It just had extra downsides he wasn't expecting.


                      For the out-of-character, or Doyalist explanation - the world started in modern days, so plots for clans that got wiped out HAD to fail, Cappadocius could have had a perfect plan and it still would have failed, no plots could have significantly deviated from the reality of the modern setting.
                      So any plots they develop have to retroactively fit the setting created, often before the plot was imagined - as such, very few things will look to have a big affect.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                        It's mostly just that they have plot books describing their plans, and most other's don't....

                        Saulot succeeded where he did because he kept things sneaky, never monologued a plot that anyone would want to foil.
                        Tzimesce "Succeeded" Because it told everyone what they needed (or wanted) to know, and that got them invested in a way they couldn't back out of.
                        Cappadocius failed because his plan required willing members and sharing info, the info got out (Or he succeeded in a plan and never intended to do what he published that he was trying to do, who knows)
                        Lasombra succeeded in ascending the vampiric form, but there's not a lot of fuss about it because he didn't want to have fanfare, his clan would come looking for him.

                        Tremere kinda succeeded. He outlived what his former magic would have allowed him to. It just had extra downsides he wasn't expecting.


                        For the out-of-character, or Doyalist explanation - the world started in modern days, so plots for clans that got wiped out HAD to fail, Cappadocius could have had a perfect plan and it still would have failed, no plots could have significantly deviated from the reality of the modern setting.
                        So any plots they develop have to retroactively fit the setting created, often before the plot was imagined - as such, very few things will look to have a big affect.

                        I understand the Doylist explanation, but it's been quite some time since the first Dark Ages came out and many things were changed, retconned or added to the WoD. Like the Lazarus cappadocians who survived into the modern night etc. Still I feel Cappadocius was treated quite unfairly as to everyone he seemed like a complete fool and failed terribly and this could have been changed with the new additions etc. And for God's sake Tzimisce has always been treated like an almighty God that faked his destruction, controlled Lugoj and was here there and everywhere Nothing seems to work against the guy lol!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                          I agree. I prefer a published version where each individual ST can make the determination for their chronicles (assuming this is an important enough question in one of their chronicles to answer).

                          A big appeal to the World of Darkness to me is that of mystery and player discovery. So I am drawn to the earliest versions of the game when these mysteries were first presented, and dislike the later editions when these mysteries were systematically answered. I prefer STs to allow me to discover their own interpretation and version of events.

                          I prefer the idea that each edition, rather than building on canon chronologically, is in fact a separate "take" on the World that does not invalidate what came before it, but gives tools to the ST to tell the stories that they want.

                          Otherwise I simply could not deal with all the dreck.

                          I agree with you, but I think some guidelines would be welcomed. As plot hooks examples, examples of possible scenarios etc. And by the way we needed to expand the Dark Ages universe.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
                            I mean, everyone assume that the Stars Above was Saulot. But what was his reasoning for influencing the Tremere into turning themselves into vampires using Tzimisce's blood? Was there ever an official explanation? Was Saulot tired of the Salubri and wanted a new clan for him? Did he want to somehow control Tzimisce? I don't recall any official explanation for his actions, beyond influencing Tremere to diablerize him, but even so, why? What's your opinion on the matter? If there's any official explanation that I'm failing to remember I'd be very glad if someone could post here.
                            What Saulot wanted/wants is one of the mysteries of the setting. No official answer was ever given (and several contraddicting theories were put forward). We even have different "official" locations for Saulot. He could be hiding among the Inconnu or in Tremere's body or reincarnated into a child, just to name a few possibilities featured in former official material about him.

                            So the answer to your question is: you need to decide what you think fits Saulot's motives best and serves the story you want to tell.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Haquim View Post

                              What Saulot wanted/wants is one of the mysteries of the setting. No official answer was ever given (and several contraddicting theories were put forward). We even have different "official" locations for Saulot. He could be hiding among the Inconnu or in Tremere's body or reincarnated into a child, just to name a few possibilities featured in former official material about him.

                              So the answer to your question is: you need to decide what you think fits Saulot's motives best and serves the story you want to tell.

                              I know that the answer is (as always) whatever the storyteller decides, but the main point of the thread is to create an environment for this wonderful discussion that we have here.

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