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  • #16
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post


    I know that the answer is (as always) whatever the storyteller decides, but the main point of the thread is to create an environment for this wonderful discussion that we have here.
    Everything depends on what you want to believe about Saulot: was he the only "good antediluvian" who wanted to forge a road to salvation for all cainites? Then things go one way.
    Was he one of the worst (if not the WORST) antediluvians intent in becoming some sort of demon god? Then things go very differently.
    The setting suggests both outcomes about Saulot to be possible, with even a third option: there are 2 different Saulots running around because he split his soul in 2 at some point. One (the evil part) is residing in Tremere's body, the other (the good one) is masquerading as a human servant in Hunedoara Castle. Both are 3rd generation cainites.

    In my games Saulot is evil and always was. He managed to fool even Caine's judgment and has been twarting all of his siblings while also working towards his own ascension as the only god of blood, everything he did (creating the Baali with the help of Cappadocius and Tzimisce), forming 3 Salubri bloodlines, taking over the Tremere and influencing the Inconnu is just a means to his endgame...

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    • #17
      I go with Grumpy RPG Reviews on this one. Do not ascribe to malice what could be explained by failure.

      Personally, I prefer to see Saulot as being, if not outright Good, then a person who has the best of intentions. He thinks he's doing good, and keeps being stymied when his plans go off the rails.

      Let's take the Baali for example. Assuming he created them (a big IF), he might have intended them as a "big enemy" that he could rally his Clan against. Because he could see the writing on the wall that his peaceful Clan of healers wasn't going to survive the Jyhad at the rate it was going, and so created both the Warrior Salubri and a foe they could make war against. This enemy could also be used to galvanize other Clans into cooperation, something the vampire world was sorely lacking in. In that sense, it worked a bit, since the Assamites joined the Salubri in the Baali wars, along with whoever else could be convinced. It's just that the Baali worked a little too well in regards to being an enemy that needed fighting, started converting other Cainites to their cause (including Troile and possibly Ur-Shulgi), and continued being a problem even after their near extermination. It probably didn't help that the Baali made loads of deals with demons and/or siphoned power from the Sleepers, and started throwing grand curses around (like what gave the Assamites their thirst for Diablerie). Nor did the threat of the Baali last very long, allowing alliances of convenience to collapse over the years.

      If Saulot had intended the Baali to be an enemy, he probably couldn't predict just what a monster he'd created.

      Alternatively, Saulot may have seen the cultists that worshiped the Sleepers, and tried to turn them into "guards" of sorts. The whole Molochim Baali idea of lulling the Sleepers into slumber through regular, ritualistic atrocity might have been Saulot's stopgap measure. At least until he could figure out a better plan. Rallying Clan Salubri to war against them was a move prompted by the Baali growing far larger and more widespread than Saulot intended, since the Baali were "only" supposed to keep their atrocities local to wherever the Sleepers slept. Again, he miscalculated how much of a monster he'd unleashed, and indeed didn't imagine that the Nergali Baali would go full Infernalist or try to become demons themselves.

      This, I think, typifies Saulot's MO throughout history. Attempts to accomplish some goal, that ended up deviating wildly from his plans. And since he's still an Antedeluvian - with an Antedeluvian's level of Grandiosity - he always assumes he's worked it all out "this time".

      Letting himself get Diablerized by Tremere in order to coopt his Clan from within? Didn't expect Tremere's soul to be so hard to defeat. Indeed, those early years of committing himself wholly to beating Tremere, only to make no progress, kept him from exercising control over Clan Salubri, or in giving orders to Clan Tremere. Saulot might have figured that between the Warrior Salubri and the Tzimisce, Clan Tremere wouldn't be THAT hard to keep in check...which made it such a surprise that the Tzimisce refused to coordinate to crush Ceoris, and the absence of Saulot made the Salubri say "well, I guess we'll die now". Rather than Clan Salubri rising to the challenge and growing stronger as a result of the Salubri-Tremere conflict, they got absolutely destroyed, their survivors scattered to the four winds and hunted like dogs. Just developing an exit strategy from Tremere's mutating body was likely an ordeal that took years, and he had to leave his Beast behind to do it (which, if the descriptions in Animalism are any indication, is much less of a boon than one would think).

      The Lair of the Hidden? The scholars and Golconda seekers of Hunedora Castle ended up barking up the wrong tree. Making a deal with a demon that trapped them there, and keeping them fixated on a spiritual dead end (with at least one believing they'd already achieved Golconda). It's no wonder that when Saulot finally showed up, the vampires there seemed like an utter disappointment. They had been the best and brightest, and THIS was all they'd managed to accomplish.
      Last edited by Bluecho; 07-01-2019, 12:50 AM.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
        I go with Grumpy RPG Reviews on this one. Do not ascribe to malice what could be explained by failure.

        Personally, I prefer to see Saulot as being, if not outright Good, than a person who has the best of intentions. He thinks he's doing good, and keeps being stymied when his plans go off the rails.

        Let's take the Baali for example. Assuming he created them (a big IF), he might have intended them as a "big enemy" that he could rally his Clan against. Because he could see the writing on the wall that his peaceful Clan of healers wasn't going to survive the Jyhad at the rate it was going, and so created both the Warrior Salubri and a foe they could make war against. This enemy could also be used to galvanize other Clans into cooperation, something the vampire world was sorely lacking in. In that sense, it worked a bit, since the Assamites joined the Salubri in the Baali wars, along with whoever else could be convinced. It's just that the Baali worked a little too well in regards to being an enemy that needed fighting, started converting other Cainites to their cause (including Troile and possibly Ur-Shulgi), and continued being a problem even after their near extermination. It probably didn't help that the Baali made loads of deals with demons and/or siphoned power from the Sleepers, and started throwing grand curses around (like what gave the Assamites their thirst for Diablerie). Nor did the threat of the Baali last very long, allowing alliances of convenience to collapse over the years.

        If Saulot had intended the Baali to be an enemy, he probably couldn't predict just what a monster he'd created.

        Alternatively, Saulot may have seen the cultists that worshiped the Sleepers, and tried to turn them into "guards" of sorts. The whole Molochim Baali idea of lulling the Sleepers into slumber through regular, ritualistic atrocity might have been Saulot's stopgap measure. At least until he could figure out a better plan. Rallying Clan Salubri to war against them was a move prompted by the Baali growing far larger and more widespread than Saulot intended, since the Baali were "only" supposed to keep their atrocities local to wherever the Sleepers slept. Again, he miscalculated how much of a monster he'd unleashed, and indeed didn't imagine that the Nergali Baali would go full Infernalist or try to become demons themselves.

        This, I think, typifies Saulot's MO throughout history. Attempts to accomplish some goal, that ended up deviating wildly from his plans. And since he's still an Antedeluvian - with an Antedeluvian's level of Grandiosity - he always assumes he's worked it all out "this time".

        Letting himself get Diablerized by Tremere in order to coopt his Clan from within? Didn't expect Tremere's soul to be so hard to defeat. Indeed, those early years of committing himself wholly to beating Tremere, only to make no progress, kept him from exercising control over Clan Salubri, or in giving orders to Clan Tremere. Saulot might have figured that between the Warrior Salubri and the Tzimisce, Clan Tremere wouldn't be THAT hard to keep in check...which made it such a surprise that the Tzimisce refused to coordinate to crush Ceoris, and the absence of Saulot made the Salubri say "well, I guess we'll die now". Rather than Clan Salubri rising to the challenge and growing stronger as a result of the Salubri-Tremere conflict, they got absolutely destroyed, their survivors scattered to the four winds and hunted like dogs. Just developing an exit strategy from Tremere's mutating body was likely an ordeal that took years, and he had to leave his Beast behind to do it (which, if the descriptions in Animalism are any indication, is much less of a boon than one would think).

        The Lair of the Hidden? The scholars and Golconda seekers of Hunedora Castle ended up barking up the wrong tree. Making a deal with a demon that trapped them there, and keeping them fixated on a spiritual dead end (with at least one believing they'd already achieved Golconda). It's no wonder that when Saulot finally showed up, the vampires there seemed like an utter disappointment. They had been the best and brightest, and THIS was all they'd managed to accomplish.

        This is also a very interesting view of Saulot. Although it's tempting to use him as a machiavellian villain, this perspective is also very good and I'd say even more "down to earth", so to speak.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
          This is also a very interesting view of Saulot. Although it's tempting to use him as a machiavellian villain, this perspective is also very good and I'd say even more "down to earth", so to speak.
          I think what I like most about it is how it parallels Tremere's own history. Of failure.

          As a magus, Tremere was the least of his peers, the weakest of the Order of Hermes founders. He only garnered political clout through aggressive use of Certamon. When the old rites started to fail, he and the rest of House Tremere jumped the gun and assumed it meant Magic itself was dying (when it truth, shifts in belief were merely causing Magic(k) to change, something other Order of Hermes mages adapted to). They tried for immortality, but got undeath instead. They tried to assert themselves in Kindred politics, and made a million enemies to go along with their many new "friends". Tremere claimed the heart's blood of a torpid Antedeluvian, securing Clan status for House Tremere and securing a hostile roommate in his head for himself. Clan Tremere became a major pillar in the new Camarilla, and Tremere was too busy fighting for his soul to personally enjoy the privilege.

          In essence, Tremere's whole life (and unlife) is one half-victory after another. It's fitting, then, that the one who ended up sharing his body would be much the same.


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          • #20
            My version of Zao Lat makes him a well intended machiavelian and religious fanatic who truly did horrible stuff beliving he was right.

            He was obsessed with golconda and tried as many methods as posible to reach it until someday he did it by using his mastery over animalism/auxpex to expulsate the beast from his body the result is that he created Tzimisce who represented the antediluvian darkest desires of power wich is why he sought to devour the world and Saulot returning to the path of humanity was just his attemp to weaken his evil self who is the want who sought to become the next demon emperor hence all the pacts with demons like kupala that he made.

            Now the stars that guided Tremere to Saulot where truly Saulot or should I say tzimisce who gave the warlocks Tzimisce blood to infect saulot body with vissicitude and consume him becoming one whole again in some kind of Venom-Spiderman fashion sadly Saulot willpower was kinda strong.That Tremere diablerized Saulot was in certain way necesary becuase the nature of saulot golconda is that their unlife where connected in a Dorian Grey Style so the main weakness of Tzimisce was saulot choosing to end his own life that´s why he used diablerie to seal him in a body he could control and why he was defeated by his sacrifice in Gehena.
            Last edited by Leandro16; 06-29-2019, 05:52 AM.


            Hunger pool

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
              In essence, Tremere's whole life (and unlife) is one half-victory after another. It's fitting, then, that the one who ended up sharing his body would be much the same.
              Tremere does seem to be a pure case of failing upwards. But I expect that is true of most of the Antes.

              And Leandro16 that Tzimisce is the otherhalf of Saulot is an interesting idea.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                Saulot had a lot of stakes involved in Transylvania: Samiel lead a war against Yorak and Tzimisce and Saulot pushed Zelios into creating a magical web to seal Kupala. It seems like in his personal Jyhad Tzimisce is a major concern.
                He did. Another theory of the diablerie of Saulot is this: Saulot, going into torpor in a lightly defended have close to the Tzimisce homelands was a trap -for the Tzimisce. He did intend to get diablerized by a 4th generation kindred, but a Tzimisce. As a 3rd generation master of the soul-discipline of Valeren, once connected to the Eldest through the Blood, he may have expected to be able to devour the monster through his bond with his clan. He may have had a home advantage against the master of flesh in a soul to soul battle. Samiels physical destruction of the Eldest had failed so a more fundamental attack as required.

                Saulot did not see the importance of the Tremere, a Tzimisce bloodline with their connection to the Tzimisce mystically severed recently having sprung from the clan. Maybe he did not even know, after that much time keeping up with recent news and embraces may be difficult. The diablerie of Saulot by an ex-archmage specialized in will-to-will battle, and the subsequent slaughter of the Salubri by a Tzimice bloodline... well after Samiels near destruction of the Eldest, the sealing of Kupala etc...it can't all be the Salubri attacking the Tzimisce. It may well have been a return strike of Tzimisce against the Salubri.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Trollroot View Post

                  He did. Another theory of the diablerie of Saulot is this: Saulot, going into torpor in a lightly defended have close to the Tzimisce homelands was a trap -for the Tzimisce. He did intend to get diablerized by a 4th generation kindred, but a Tzimisce. As a 3rd generation master of the soul-discipline of Valeren, once connected to the Eldest through the Blood, he may have expected to be able to devour the monster through his bond with his clan. He may have had a home advantage against the master of flesh in a soul to soul battle. Samiels physical destruction of the Eldest had failed so a more fundamental attack as required.

                  Saulot did not see the importance of the Tremere, a Tzimisce bloodline with their connection to the Tzimisce mystically severed recently having sprung from the clan. Maybe he did not even know, after that much time keeping up with recent news and embraces may be difficult. The diablerie of Saulot by an ex-archmage specialized in will-to-will battle, and the subsequent slaughter of the Salubri by a Tzimice bloodline... well after Samiels near destruction of the Eldest, the sealing of Kupala etc...it can't all be the Salubri attacking the Tzimisce. It may well have been a return strike of Tzimisce against the Salubri.

                  These ideas are very good. That surely makes one think of new possibilities. I have always worked with the assumption that Saulot had somehow anticipated most of the things that happened in the battle with Tremere/Tzimisce etc, but this time I want something different and your have given me quite some inspiration for new ideas. Thank you very much sir!

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