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If you can sell out for power where are our Revenge drowned Infernalist?

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  • #16
    The big reason I can see for Demons wanting to throw away a Vampire thrall is the fact that Vampires are much, much harder to kill than mortals. Unlike a normal servant, the Demon can not simply wait out the clock, because vampires don't die with age. And their regenerative powers allows them to recover from injuries which would cripple and outright kill ordinary mortals.

    Unless their servant either overestimates their ability, or is just incompetent at being a vampire, it seems like orchestrating their downfall is the only option the Demon has for claiming their soul upon death.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
      The big reason I can see for Demons wanting to throw away a Vampire thrall is the fact that Vampires are much, much harder to kill than mortals. Unlike a normal servant, the Demon can not simply wait out the clock, because vampires don't die with age. And their regenerative powers allows them to recover from injuries which would cripple and outright kill ordinary mortals.

      Unless their servant either overestimates their ability, or is just incompetent at being a vampire, it seems like orchestrating their downfall is the only option the Demon has for claiming their soul upon death.
      Not every vampire is going to live forever. It's The Dream, sure, but few manage it. And unlike mortals, demons are much like vampires. At least, in the sense that they have all the time in the world to wait.

      Further, as I illustrated in an earlier comment, a thrall has plenty of value to offer when they remain in the material world. In that sense, vampires make for fine servants. They'll keep going for as long as the demon needs them. And they'll keep returning to "the well" for more power, which can be traded for more "favors" (read: mortals corrupted to Infernalism and atrocities committed in the demon's name).

      Really, if an Infernalist vampire manages to survive to be a Methuselah, the demon has obviously gotten a VERY useful pawn. You don't just throw away a thrall like that. Not when they can get you some many more souls. (See the "Inverse Pyramid Scheme").
      Last edited by Bluecho; 07-07-2019, 04:11 AM.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

        So demons are just out there giving vampires free power?

        I'm guessing the vampires themselves don't know about this, though?
        no, they have other bargains that don't involve souls,
        alot of the time, it works as a pyramid scheme, infernalists are offered services in exchange for attracting more infernalists (human or otherwise),
        other times, the demon will bargain for services (or servitude), sacrifices etc

        the vampire may offer their soul when they have nothing else to offer, or to make up for failing to honor a deal,
        it's a last resort scenario, but it seems to always end up happening at some point

        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
        The big reason I can see for Demons wanting to throw away a Vampire thrall is the fact that Vampires are much, much harder to kill than mortals. Unlike a normal servant, the Demon can not simply wait out the clock, because vampires don't die with age. And their regenerative powers allows them to recover from injuries which would cripple and outright kill ordinary mortals.
        the average life expectancy for a vampire is lower than the average human despite their immortality,
        the estimates are 50 for Cam, and 25 for sabbat

        if the demon targetted the sabbat younglings (which they did), they'd have a lot of souls to harvest (which they don't care for)

        in modern nights however, and after the whole inquisition thing happened, the demons are more picky of their vampire thralls,
        they prefer going after the good ones (elders even) that can last them longer and give better results

        that doesn't mean they won't go after the weaklings,
        after all, the good ones are rare and far in between, and beggars can't be choosers


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        • #19
          The average life expectancy of a Sabbat is much lower then 25. If I recall I think it was mentioned like 4 years. Anyone embraced into the Sabbat has a good chance of not surviving long, its just once you survive that initial hurdle then you have a chance of surviving longer but still they have a much more dangerous life then the average Cammy.

          But you make a Vampire and Infernalist they are very likely to die, people always keep an eye out for them, they are likely to have the type of habits to get them caught. But Demons I see like to do win win scenarios with Vampires, setting them up to serve them if they survive, and if they die they get their soul.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
            The average life expectancy of a Sabbat is much lower then 25. If I recall I think it was mentioned like 4 years. Anyone embraced into the Sabbat has a good chance of not surviving long, its just once you survive that initial hurdle then you have a chance of surviving longer but still they have a much more dangerous life then the average Cammy.

            But you make a Vampire and Infernalist they are very likely to die, people always keep an eye out for them, they are likely to have the type of habits to get them caught. But Demons I see like to do win win scenarios with Vampires, setting them up to serve them if they survive, and if they die they get their soul.

            I can't remember which lore video this was (I think it might have been Gentleman Gamer?) but it was suggested that 5th edition Sabbat who left to fight Gehenna might have come across a cave full of 6th gen Methuslahs waiting in torpor, which they promptly diablerized. If this is true, then it sounds like the Sabbat in 5th edition are going to be considerably more powerful and dangerous than the one we're familiar with now.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
              The average life expectancy of a Sabbat is much lower then 25. If I recall I think it was mentioned like 4 years
              no, pretty sure it's 25 in the sabbat guide,
              but of course, it's just an average,
              and for an average, 25 (or even 50) is pretty damn low for a population with individuals that have gone over the 600
              so yeah, most don't make it past a few years

              in any case, the point stands, immortality isn't gonna be an issue for soul thirsty demons


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                I can't remember which lore video this was (I think it might have been Gentleman Gamer?) but it was suggested that 5th edition Sabbat who left to fight Gehenna might have come across a cave full of 6th gen Methuslahs waiting in torpor, which they promptly diablerized. If this is true, then it sounds like the Sabbat in 5th edition are going to be considerably more powerful and dangerous than the one we're familiar with now.
                Missing the point. Sabbat life is rough and they don't exactly coddle you, they put you in dangerous situations and treat you like a slave till you earn the right to be called a Cainite, and after that you do dangerous things that have a reasonable chance of ending in you meeting final death. Most Sabbat packs are like revolving doors. A few 6th gens diablerized by a few Sabbat won't really change the fact that as a neonate you have a good chance of Dying.


                So question how many vampires were in the cave? Was this part of the Cyclical Gehenna theory, so the Antes likely had a big brood of childer and grandchilder and great Grand childer with the idea that more suitable vampires would inherit the blood by eating them in the future. Like a time capsule?

                Oh well 5th Gen changes everything about the game anyways. So silly that the Camarilla becomes exclusive, it only happens so they can shift the focus to the Anarchs because they figure that will sell well with the current climate.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                  no, pretty sure it's 25 in the sabbat guide,
                  but of course, it's just an average,
                  and for an average, 25 (or even 50) is pretty damn low for a population with individuals that have gone over the 600
                  so yeah, most don't make it past a few years

                  in any case, the point stands, immortality isn't gonna be an issue for soul thirsty demons
                  It depends on what we count as "Sabbat" when running the numbers. If we're talking about "True Sabbat", then maybe. I think I agree with Eldagusto, in that 4 years is closer. But let's just go with 25 for the sake of argument.

                  If we're including Shovelheads, the "average" age gets skewed way lower. Mass-Embraced childer have the unlife expectancy of fruit flies. Many don't make it out of the graves they're buried in, and others die off sometime in the following nights due to various causes. Being used as cannon fodder in raids, perishing in some bizarre pre-raid Ritae (probably involving fire), being driven so mad by the creation rites that they need putting down, full blown "I won't be part of your crazy death cult!" rebellion (usually ending in a quick demise), or even just making the wrong "True" Sabbat lick angry.

                  The turnover rate on the Sabbat is frankly disgusting. The sect embraces (pun YES intended) r-Strategy hard. Which means, simply in terms of raw numbers, the Sabbat's average age tanks.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                    I feel its criminally underused the concept of Infernalists who sold out for power. I know its a bad idea but that's the point, they are NPCs so why not use them? Where are our weak horribly screwed over Neonates or Thinbloods, who sold out for some Dark Thaumaturgy, or hell normal disciplines, or even more potent Generation as they have mentioned Demon have been able to lower ones generation?

                    Hell I found it kind of bad Writing in the Talmaherah book, which was normally excellently written, when that single "good guy" Baali was able to take out the Demon Thrall Baali all by himself, multiple hives... Whats the point of them selling out if it doesn't make a difference in fighting a Vampire who has no such benefit?
                    There are infernal characters that are essentially upscaled versions of what you describe, jilted or ambitious figures who turn to demons for power to match to someone more potent.
                    • Nergal sought demonic power to be able to compete with the Methuselah of the ancient world
                    • Mary the Black sought revenge against the Methuselah Michael the Patriarch
                    • Oliver Thrace sought the power of the Yama Kings to destroy the Kuei-jin/Wan Kuei/Cathayans
                    Mary especially fits because Michael abandoned her when the city was attacked, and so infernal forces gave her the power to not only return but eventually get revenge and diablerize Michael. That said you could easily look at any younger vampire whose authority and stats are outsized and say they made a demonic pact. Or you make one yourself and put them into your chronicle. Really the biggest issue, mentioned by others, is that both sects have groups devoted to seeking out infernalists in their numbers. If a thinblood or neonate does something really noticeable (like killing the Scourge) accusations of diablerie are likely to follow before infernalism. Which also carries the price of a blood hunt on their head in the Camarilla, among the Sabbat they may get away with it a little longer but eventually the Sabbat Inquisition will root them out if they continue to be overly showy with their power.

                    As for the single good guy Baali are you referring to Sahar-Hanibaal? If so then you are woefully underselling his power. He's an ancient vampire from Carthage itself. He learned how to fight the Nergali Baali from Moloch himself. From leading the Molochim since the mid 1200s he's gained enough power to where most of his stats are maxed out for his generation. Additionally he led the Molochim in removing the strictures against learning blood magic and is a master of Dur-An-Ki, including Spirit Manipulation (along with having Retainers 6 representing various spirits he's bound). He's not just a "good guy Baali" he is probably one of the most power anti-infernalist vampires alive and active in the modern nights along with having the advantage of having learned from Moloch who understands the power the infernalists wield to an extent that only Nergal, the Unnamed, and Ur-Shulgi (assuming you go with the metaplot implications he's actually a Baali/Apostate) know.
                    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                    problem with that is, as of revised, vampiric souls aren't worth anything anymore,
                    they can't be used as currency in hell, so the demon has no interest in it after the death of the infernalist

                    they can still use the soul as a bargaining chip, to put pressure on the infernalist and exert more control over them, but only while they're still alive
                    This has been changed in V20 Rites of the Blood, in the Vampiric Souls Sidebar on pg 117

                    In order to forge a foedus with a demon, an individual must possess a soul, sentience, and free will. This leads to another issue: do vampires have souls? Although no one knows the true disposition of a vampiric soul, it has been proven that vampires can perform summoning rituals, they can bargain with demons, and they can make pacts involving the sale of their soul. Demons, it seems, are willing to take the risk.

                    If a vampire is already damned by her nature as a member of the undead, how can she bargain with something she doesn’t control? In reality, there’s a difference between a soul being damned, and a soul being claimed by a demon. A demon is interested in harvesting as many souls as possible in order to empower itself, even — perhaps especially — if those souls were headed to Hell anyway.

                    The way a demon sees it, the only thing better than a cookie is a cookie you steal from someone else.
                    So as per the V20 rules vampires have enough of a soul to make pacts, including a true pact, with a demon. By making the pact the demon is insuring that the soul goes to them as opposed to just ending up in hell and possibly under the purview of another.


                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    Inquisitor: Billy, the Toreador, you stand accused of bargaining with demons. Do you have any words to say in your defense?

                    Billy: 98% of clan Tzimisce 'bargained' with Kupala, and we can only guess at what entities the Lasombra have regular dealings with!

                    Inquisitor: ... Shit, you're right...
                    The official stance of the Sabbat is that Kupala is an earth spirit that the Koldun have successfully pulled power from. The Koldun have neither sold themselves to it, nor is it officially a demon. Pragmatically the Sabbat Inquisition understands that it cannot declare Kupala and the works of the Koldun as infernal in nature. It was the ancient Koldunic ritae which shattered the bonds of blood and is the fundamental ritual of Vaulderie. If Koldunic Sorcery and rites were declared infernal it would mean that every single True Sabbat has engaged in repeated infernal rituals by participating the Sabbat's most basic rite. Such an accusation would tear the Sabbat apart.

                    A similar mindset is taken regarding the Abyss Mystics, many of them are supporters of the Sabbat Inquisition and attacking them not only robs the Inquisition but the larger Sabbat of a mystical tool. Given that the Camarilla has the advantage of Tremere Thaumaturges, the Sabbat cannot afford to go looking too deeply into the mystical arts of the two progenitor clans of the sect.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cynic01 View Post



                      The official stance of the Sabbat is that Kupala is an earth spirit that the Koldun have successfully pulled power from. The Koldun have neither sold themselves to it, nor is it officially a demon. Pragmatically the Sabbat Inquisition understands that it cannot declare Kupala and the works of the Koldun as infernal in nature. It was the ancient Koldunic ritae which shattered the bonds of blood and is the fundamental ritual of Vaulderie. If Koldunic Sorcery and rites were declared infernal it would mean that every single True Sabbat has engaged in repeated infernal rituals by participating the Sabbat's most basic rite. Such an accusation would tear the Sabbat apart.

                      A similar mindset is taken regarding the Abyss Mystics, many of them are supporters of the Sabbat Inquisition and attacking them not only robs the Inquisition but the larger Sabbat of a mystical tool. Given that the Camarilla has the advantage of Tremere Thaumaturges, the Sabbat cannot afford to go looking too deeply into the mystical arts of the two progenitor clans of the sect.

                      Denial of the truth doesn't mean it stops being the truth. Just means you're ignoring the facts in favor of your own personal delusion of the situation. The Sabbat is free to claim they don't practice infernalism all the want; but if all the evidence points to the contrary... well...

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cynic01 View Post

                        This has been changed in V20 Rites of the Blood, in the Vampiric Souls Sidebar on pg 117
                        heh...my bad


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                          Denial of the truth doesn't mean it stops being the truth. Just means you're ignoring the facts in favor of your own personal delusion of the situation. The Sabbat is free to claim they don't practice infernalism all the want; but if all the evidence points to the contrary... well...
                          Did we SAY the Sabbat weren't hypocrites? Because I don't remember saying that.

                          Compromise is the name of the game in the Sabbat, usually Begrudging. A dozen zealous factions vie for power and a voice, each convinced that THEY represent the true will of Caine and the spirit of the original Anarch Revolt. When a petty disagreement could break from words into claws, shadows, and more unspeakable appendages, politely NOT pressing certain subjects is often not just the wisest answer, it's the only answer that doesn't leave half the room as piles of ash. (Just look at the Tzimisce Clan Novel, where even the relatively successful war council must endure multiple deaths at the table that the book considers worthy of only passing mention, and that the perspective characters view with an annoyed "not this shit again").

                          Is it any wonder that Infernalism is such a problem for the Sabbat? According to some books, the sect was rife with followers of the Path of Evil Revelations, and only managed to thin their numbers by covertly throwing known followers into suicidal crusades (including the East Coast crusade). Infernalism festers because the sect needs power - especially magic power - while also celebrating accomplishment. But because of politics, the Sword of Caine is in many ways constitutionally incapable of truly defeating its Infernal taint. Especially if, like some say, Koldunism, Abyss Mysticism, and the very Ritae themselves have Infernal origins.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                            Did we SAY the Sabbat weren't hypocrites? Because I don't remember saying that.
                            I know. But it just seems silly that a sect which venerates and glorifies their vampiric existence would have reservations about trafficking with such creatures.

                            I'm sure the Lilins are biting their tongues, trying not to point out the fact that their precious disciplines were taught by demons and angels, rather than being directly associated with Caine.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                              I know. But it just seems silly that a sect which venerates and glorifies their vampiric existence would have reservations about trafficking with such creatures.
                              history, my friend. the answer is always history


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