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How many vampires do mortals kill in a year?

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  • How many vampires do mortals kill in a year?

    Here is the inverse of the question asked in the other thread; how many vampires do mortals kill every year?

    This includes, but is not limited to, the Second Inquisition - which is not a single entity, but more of an international effort. Anyway, this includes everyone from local, self-motivated and armed hunters to organized and well equipped government funded strike teams.

    How many blood suckers do you think they destroy in a year?

  • #2
    I have the belief that vampires actually are extremely unlikely to survive their first year and it's not until your tenth year or so that your survival chances increase. Most of these vampires will die by suicide, other vampires, or stupidity.

    However, the majority of vampires a Hunter will find as well as destroy are young ones.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      This actually has some interesting implications.

      If a vampire hunters learn based upon what they encounter and survive, that would mean that their knowledge would be skewed as a result. Thus you could make an argument that the majority of vampires killed by mortals are Brujah and Toreador neonates. I suggest those two clans because they tend to gravitate to human contact and are found across all strata of society.

      Most of the other clans tend to exist in environments that preclude most people meeting them or have disciplines that make them substantially harder to deal with. I mean sure a Ventrue might be at the center of a massive business empire, but unless you are a CEO you won't run into them randomly. Further more even if their feeding requirements are the reason you are meeting them, Dominate and high Resources tends to deal with most problems.

      So as to the numbers of vampires killed, I would say enough to keep the Brujah and Toreador embraces of fancy in check. Otherwise every sheriff would be actively hunting those clans childer practically every night just to keep a population ratio in check.

      Of course how this sort of scenario lead to the Tremere, one of the most secretive of clans, with a habit of rarely leaving their chantries some how gets IDed by the Second Inquisition and has their HQ destroyed before the Brujah and Toreador are wiped off the face of the earth is a bit odd.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Thoth View Post
        This actually has some interesting implications.

        If a vampire hunters learn based upon what they encounter and survive, that would mean that their knowledge would be skewed as a result. Thus you could make an argument that the majority of vampires killed by mortals are Brujah and Toreador neonates. I suggest those two clans because they tend to gravitate to human contact and are found across all strata of society.
        Ehhh, I'm inclined to think that leaves out Caitiff and that the number of those are far larger than most Kindred argue. They're also the vampires who have the least amount of support structure for maintaining the Masquerade.

        Antitribu will always also be the loudest and most likely to draw attention as well as simply result in, "Hunter goes into their home, stakes them or burns down the building."

        Lasombra and Tzimisce will probably be too much for most hunters to handle. However, bluntly, their actions will draw the most attention.

        Gangrel are also going to be vampires who are constantly on the movie, which means that they will often be someone who causes a disruption in the local life.

        I think the Nosferatu are, surprisingly enough, the least vulnerable to Hunters.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
          I have the belief that vampires actually are extremely unlikely to survive their first year and it's not until your tenth year or so that your survival chances increase. Most of these vampires will die by suicide, other vampires, or stupidity.

          However, the majority of vampires a Hunter will find as well as destroy are young ones.
          When I ST chronicles, I have it that most fledglings are destroyed as well. Most of the time, this is done at their own hands or the hands of their sires once they realize they really can't hack it as predators. Either they can't handle the loss of humanity, or are just too careless or stupid to properly maintain the Masquerade.

          An important reason why sires would quickly terminate unreleased childer who don't see them will hack it (besides that other vampires hold them responsible for any problems), is that they might attract vampire hunters, lupines, or lord knows what else to their door step. An important role of the urban lupines (Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers) is culling very obvious vampires. In my chronicles, while those lupines don't actively hunt vampires (and many collaborate in some kind of way to keep the peace), any vampire stupid enough to make themselves noticeable will probably be destroyed fairly quickly by them.

          In order to encourage responsibility among the sires, Princes don't hold it against them if their selected childe does not work out. If they are given permission to create a new vampire, that holds until their childe is actually released. So a sire might go through one or more childer until they finally embrace one that works out long term.

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          • #6
            Vampire hunters in my chronicles typically go after two sorts of quarries. Both are known to be sloppy and provide lots of evidence of their existence and activity. The first group are reckless fledglings who have not been properly trained in their hunting, or too arrogant int heir behavior. The second are Sabbat and other vampires on the Paths of Enlightenment. Seasoned Camarilla vampires are extremely unlikely to encounter hunters.

            I do not play V5, but a distinguishing feature in my chronicles is that I try to make mortal hunters very dangerous. Dangerous enough to remind the PCs that following the Masquerade is important. So while I do not have Second Inquisition style craziness, my vampire hunters have been more dangerous than how they were depicted in earlier editions. Many vampire hunters are "amateurs" - they are individual friends and family members who are trying to protect or avenge their loved ones. They can be dangerous, but are limited in their resources and knowledge and motivation. Hunters of Camarilla vampires tend to be this type. But the professionals - the Society of Leopold - are very dangerous. They can wipe out an entire Sabbat pack in the daytime. These are the ones that typically destroy the Sabbat and Independent Clans.

            My preference for vampire hunters are small groups of people with a variety of skills and knowledge. The famous vampire hunters in Stoker's Dracula, and the vampire hunters in Marvel's Tomb of Dracula (who closely mirror the first).

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            • #7
              I think the number of vampires killed by mortals on a yearly basis is extremely small, even with the Second Inquisition being thrown into the mix.

              Let's take a moment to consider that vampire society is largely self policing. When somebody breaks the laws and threatens the Masquerade, they are most likely to be punished by their own kind, and have all evidence swept under the rug before any mortals come poking around for answers.

              There's also the fact that the world wide kindred population is pitifully small compared to the amount of mortals out there. If we go by the estimate of 1 vampire for every 50 to 100k humans, then that puts the global population at a mere 80 to 160k vampires against 8 billion humans. If the Second Inquisition was killing vampires all year round, then their species would probably be extinct within a century. Unless they take a page from the Sabbat and begin mass embracing people to replenish their numbers.

              The way I see it, the Second Inquisition is only a threat in domains where vampires are incompetent at maintaining the Masquerade. In a properly run city, vampires have more to fear from other supernatural threats, than they do from mortals.
              Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-07-2019, 02:29 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                I think the number of vampires killed by mortals on a yearly basis is extremely small, even with the Second Inquisition being thrown into the mix.

                Let's take a moment to consider that vampire society is largely self policing. When somebody breaks the laws and threatens the Masquerade, they are most likely to be punished by their own kind, and have all evidence swept under the rug before any mortals come poking around for answers.
                Most likely, yes. Of course, the SI needs to get lucky only once. As soon as they have found one thread, they can start pulling - how many neonates really know enough tradecraft to evade nation-level actors?

                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                There's also the fact that the world wide kindred population is pitifully small compared to the amount of mortals out there. If we go by the estimate of 1 vampire for every 50 to 100k humans, then that puts the global population at a mere 80 to 160k vampires against 8 billion humans.
                V5 generally uses somewhat higher numbers, at least for local populations.

                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                If the Second Inquisition was killing vampires all year round, then their species would probably be extinct within a century.
                Exactly. Which is why it's kind of important for the vampires to either find better methods of hiding or make sure the SI doesn't last a century. This is an extinction-level threat and it's presented as such in the books.

                Originally posted by Thoth View Post
                Of course how this sort of scenario lead to the Tremere, one of the most secretive of clans, with a habit of rarely leaving their chantries some how gets IDed by the Second Inquisition and has their HQ destroyed before the Brujah and Toreador are wiped off the face of the earth is a bit odd.
                The Tremere are also a clan with a habit of making enemies. As the saying goes:

                Tremere: "Oh oracle, tell me: Who tipped off the Inquisition to our Prime Chantry!"
                Malkavian: "It was your great enemy!"
                Tremere: "The Tzimisce?"
                Malkavian: "Er, no."
                Tremere: "Oh, then the Assamites?"
                Malkavian: "We don't use that word anymore, but no."
                Tremere: "The Salubri? Are there any left?"
                Malkavian: "No, but yes."
                Tremere:"Let me make a note about that. The Gargoyles then? Seriously, the rockheads had it in them?"
                Malkavian: "Nah, they're probably too stupid."
                Tremere: "Ohhh... you mean it was Tremere? We're our own worst enemy and all that crap?"
                Malkavian: "Getting philosophical, are we?"
                Tremere: "Okay, let's go at this from another angle: Who knew we had our headquarters in Vienna?"
                Malkavian: "Basically everyone."
                Tremere: "Well... crap."

                I would assume the casualty rates of individual Brujah and Toreador are definitely higher, but there's just no central structure to be attacked there.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cifer View Post

                  Exactly. Which is why it's kind of important for the vampires to either find better methods of hiding or make sure the SI doesn't last a century. This is an extinction-level threat and it's presented as such in the books.
                  Except that it really isn't, as we had a thread all about discussing methods in which to defeat the SI, as well as reasons for why it is ultimately not able to sustain itself.

                  Two reasons I put forth are the fact that 1 vampire is just as deadly in combat as an entire squad of hunters. Even if the SI does manage to successfully take out a few vampires in the city, they are probably going to suffer heavier losses than the enemy. Special forces training is NOT cheap, and only the blind zealots of the SoL would consider it to be an acceptable trade off, rather than forming some kind of compromised agreement with kindred after a while.

                  The other reason is that thanks to vampire mind control, either through Dominate, Presence, or outright Blood Bonds, the vampire can just get a hold of somebody from the tech department, and order them to purge all their data once they get back to headquarters. Sure, the thrall probably isn't making it back out of there alive, but that just means one less loose end to tie up.

                  Also, their information came from Schrecknet, which was primarily focused on spying on everybody and everything. Rather than recording any kind of vampire lore. They might know who a vampire is, and where they're staying, but they have no idea what they're capable of. And a hefty chunk of that data is probably going to be focused on mortals, just as much as supernatural targets. And include everything from their eating habits, to their underwear size. Simply put, finding any kind of reliable or important pieces of information on the Nosferatu database is going to be a shit show.

                  Mortals were never the BBEG of Masquerade. That role has always belonged to the Antedeluvians. Mortals are a threat, certainly, and they almost wiped vampires out in the dark ages. But that was because the vampires didn't expect an uprising, and it was during a time when they walked around freely out in the open.

                  They've spent the last thousand years or so preparing defenses for exactly this kind of situation. The world thinks they're just a myth, and the SI seems content to leave it as such. The SI is trying to fight a shadow war against creatures who engage in such maneuvers on a nearly constant basis, and have centuries worth of experience in the field, compared to a laughably small couple of decades that individual agents of the SI might bring to the table.
                  Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-07-2019, 08:48 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                    Except that it really isn't, as we had a thread all about discussing methods in which to defeat the SI, as well as reasons for why it is ultimately not able to sustain itself.
                    The only problem with this thinking is that the older and more powerful a vampire is, the easier it is to toss him in the sun and dispose of him.

                    At Humanity 1 or 2, you can do the old fashioned hammer and stake without them waking up.

                    Anything less than an Antediluvian or Methuselah is easy prey for the least of hunters.

                    Humans could easily wipe out vampires if they moved as one.

                    Thankfully, they never will because humans are like vampires and will never cooperate consistently or for long.

                    So, I wouldn't be surprised if the SI wipes out half of all vampires before they end up stopping due to lack of funds or getting sick of it.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      The only problem with this thinking is that the older and more powerful a vampire is, the easier it is to toss him in the sun and dispose of him.

                      At Humanity 1 or 2, you can do the old fashioned hammer and stake without them waking up.

                      Anything less than an Antediluvian or Methuselah is easy prey for the least of hunters.

                      Humans could easily wipe out vampires if they moved as one.

                      Thankfully, they never will because humans are like vampires and will never cooperate consistently or for long.

                      So, I wouldn't be surprised if the SI wipes out half of all vampires before they end up stopping due to lack of funds or getting sick of it.
                      If killing a vampire was as easy as just attacking them during the day, then kindred everywhere would have been sending Ghouls after their rivals a long time ago. The fact that they do not, probably means they have better defenses than you give them credit for. Speaking of which, what does the SI do when they encounter said Ghouls, who don't possess most of the vampire's weaknesses, can still use their abilities, and defend their masters with a terrifying level of blind devotion?

                      Exactly, if they moved as one. That is not what is happening, the SI is trying to keep this fight under wraps, and declaring martial law as you send in an entire army to clean up the city is going to attract unwanted attention. If they want to keep things secret, they're going to send out small hit squads and S.W.A.T teams. Which, while dangerous enough to win the battle, are still not threatening enough to win the war.

                      Sure, the SI might catch a few vampires off guard when they first show up. But the ones who they don't initially target are going to instantly know something is up when Havens start getting fire bombed. It's not like they're just going to sit around waiting for the inevitable strike team to kick down their door.
                      Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-07-2019, 09:09 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                        Tremere: "Okay, let's go at this from another angle: Who knew we had our headquarters in Vienna?"
                        Malkavian: "Basically everyone."
                        Tremere: "Well... crap."

                        I would assume the casualty rates of individual Brujah and Toreador are definitely higher, but there's just no central structure to be attacked there.
                        While it may be true that many vampires might know that Vienna was the location for the main chantry, I still haven't heard how any one other than an elder Tremere with counter Thaumaturgy could get past the multiple layers of defenses to find the place. Just trying to get past the ward that makes the entire chantry go off grid and makes any and all paperwork or records referring to it automatically disappear would make it near impossible for mortals to use a drone strike or even find the place. The various wardings make any attempt to attack in person completely pointless. With a clan discipline being dominate you can bet that most mortal agencies are heavily programed to either protect Tremere interests or at least function as an early warning system.

                        So yeah, I'm not buying the Deus ex Machina of the central chantry being destroyed as being anything other than bad writing. Though White Wolf has always had a bad habit for treating the Tremere storyline like a hyperactive kid describing an action scene from a marvel movie.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                          If killing a vampire was as easy as just attacking them during the day, then kindred everywhere would have been sending Ghouls after their rivals a long time ago. The fact that they do not, probably means they have better defenses than you give them credit for. Speaking of which, what does the SI do when they encounter said Ghouls, who don't possess most of the vampire's weaknesses, can still use their abilities, and defend their masters with a terrifying level of blind devotion?
                          They use guns.



                          As for vampires going after other vampires during the day, how do you think most Kindred assassinate one another? If you're going after an Older VampireTM you don't want to be associated with it so it's not going to involve your ghouls but that probably is the best way to eliminate them. The Sabbat would do it that way if they weren't disdainful of ghouls and eager for diablerie.

                          In my games, the Camarilla primarily does use mortal agents during the day when taking out cities. They're not people fighting in the streets like Anarchs or the Black Hand.
                          Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-07-2019, 09:12 AM.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            They use guns.


                            Have the SI managed to invent a bullet that transcends time itself? Because if they're still using ordinary firearms, then Celerity makes that an incredibly arrogant tactic. It doesn't matter how powerful the weapon is, if you can't hit anything with it.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                              Have the SI managed to invent a bullet that transcends time itself? Because if they're still using ordinary firearms, then Celerity makes that an incredibly arrogant tactic. It doesn't matter how powerful the weapon is, if you can't hit anything with it.
                              Celerity doesn't move you faster than a bullet.

                              Also, ghouls aren't known for having much in the way of Disciplines beyond Potence 1.

                              A ghoul with Disciplines has a name: Revenant.

                              Plus even if a vampire is awake during the day, he's incredibly sluggish and fair game. It's a good way of making Hunters terrifying.
                              Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-07-2019, 09:20 AM.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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