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  • Beckett's embrace date

    First of all there are three accounts to consider:

    Dark Ages novel Ventrue "But then Cainites like Julia Antasia not only chose Humanitatis, but made it the focus of their unlives. Julia Antasia is on a par with my sire in age and influence, even if Hardestadt would never admit it, thought Jürgen, poring over her words in the Letters. How has she staved off the Beast for so long"

    Gehenna the Final Night "You’re not my elder by so many years as you lead people to believe, Hardestadt" There's this quote.

    Beckett Jyhad Diary (Okulos embrace in 1628) Then there's this,

    Hardestadt the Younger was embraced by 947 and Beckett is younger that Okulos, therefore, it ignores the idea of a developer of an entire line of books (Dark Ages: Vampire) useless.

    Either, Beckett and Okuos are older than they claim, which I hope so, since V20 is "canon agnostic" or there has been a major continuity error.

    - Saga

  • #2
    I wouldn't call it a major continuity error. In Vampire terms, even if Hardestadt the Younger was Embraced in 947, a 600 year ago gap between him and Beckett isn't that vast. Consider he's been speaking with vampires like Marcus Vitel. And anyway, Beckett has no confirmed knowledge of Hardestadt's Embrace date.

    Okulos and Beckett are almost definitely creatures of the 17th century.


    Matthew Dawkins
    In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


    Website: http://www.matthewdawkins.com
    Patreon: http://https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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    • #3
      Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
      I wouldn't call it a major continuity error. In Vampire terms, even if Hardestadt the Younger was Embraced in 947, a 600 year ago gap between him and Beckett isn't that vast. Consider he's been speaking with vampires like Marcus Vitel. And anyway, Beckett has no confirmed knowledge of Hardestadt's Embrace date.

      Okulos and Beckett are almost definitely creatures of the 17th century.

      I would politely disagree with this.

      To a creature being embraced in the 17th century British Isles, recalling an elder more than twice his age "you are not my elder by that much" would be imprudent (even so he himself claimed so, which he did). There are several books stating that the current Hardestadt (the Younger one) was embraced in 947 and the Dark Ages and Vampire revised (that page in the core rulebook) seems to agree with this.

      Beckett, being a native British, and so-called "kindred historian", I doubt he ignores the existence of Robin Leeland, Agatha of Maidstone, Bodhmall (perhaps he is from its lineage), Mme Guil's involvement surrounding Tiamat, one Ventrue named Lucius Seianus (the letter J didn't came into existence since century and a half later), and the rebellion of Wat Tyler which ended in the embrace of the female that diablerized Hardestadt. He, visited twice Chicago (which are known), first in Year of the Scarab Trilogy in which he saw a methuselah survive a 113 story fall (the Sears tower IIRC) and later in BJD.

      I really doubt he would be such a successful historian if he weren't somehow as mighty as his rival Vykos.

      Let's say if he wasn't that old. How did he achieved such camadarerie with Lucita and Anatole, both whom they are contemporary to Vykos (at least in TC1 concepts)? No one else was ever included in such "coterie" even though they both share lots of contacts and allies by themselves.

      Gehenna the Final Night quotes that Beckett knew about Hardestadt the Younger masquerade:
      "It was something Beckett, who had access to many historical perspectives and even firsthand accounts that most others did not, had figured out quite some time ago. Officially, Hardestadt had survived an assassination attempt by a revolutionary called Tyler during the Anarch Revolt, the Renaissance-era Kindred war that had indirectly spawned both the Camarilla and the Sabbat. Beckett, however, had pieced together the truth, a truth known only to a select few among the Camarilla’s highest ranks: Hardestadt the Elder had indeed died at Tyler’s hands and fangs. It was his childe, Hardestadt the Younger, who survived to this night, having taken his sire’s place"

      - Saga
      Last edited by Saga; 07-10-2019, 11:21 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Saga View Post


        I would politely disagree with this.

        To a creature being embraced in the 17th century British Isles, recalling an elder more than twice his age "you are not my elder by that much" would be imprudent (even so he himself claimed so, which he did). There are several books stating that the current Hardestadt (the Younger one) was embraced in 947 and the Dark Ages and Vampire revised (that page in the core rulebook) seems to agree with this.

        Beckett, being a native British, and so-called "kindred historian", I doubt he ignores the existence of Robin Leeland, Agatha of Maidstone, Bodhmall (perhaps he is from its lineage), Mme Guil's involvement surrounding Tiamat, one Ventrue named Lucius Seianus (the letter J didn't came into existence since century and a half later), and the rebellion of Wat Tyler which ended in the embrace of the female that diablerized Hardestadt. He, visited twice Chicago (which are known), first in Year of the Scarab Trilogy in which he saw a methuselah survive a 113 story fall (the Sears tower IIRC) and later in BJD.

        I really doubt he would be such a successful historian if he weren't somehow as mighty as his rival Vykos.

        Let's say if he wasn't that old. How did he achieved such camadarerie with Lucita and Anatole, both whom they are contemporary to Vykos (at least in TC1 concepts)? No one else was ever included in such "coterie" even though they both share lots of contacts and allies by themselves.

        Gehenna the Final Night quotes that Beckett knew about Hardestadt the Younger masquerade:
        "It was something Beckett, who had access to many historical perspectives and even firsthand accounts that most others did not, had figured out quite some time ago. Officially, Hardestadt had survived an assassination attempt by a revolutionary called Tyler during the Anarch Revolt, the Renaissance-era Kindred war that had indirectly spawned both the Camarilla and the Sabbat. Beckett, however, had pieced together the truth, a truth known only to a select few among the Camarilla’s highest ranks: Hardestadt the Elder had indeed died at Tyler’s hands and fangs. It was his childe, Hardestadt the Younger, who survived to this night, having taken his sire’s place"

        - Saga

        He was almost definitely Embraced in the 17th century, but you can make him as old or as young as you like in your chronicles.

        As for reasoning behind some of your points, his statement to Hardestadt could just be in mockery of the younger-than-everyone-thinks Hardestadt, his camaraderie with Lucita and Anatole stems from their enjoying his intelligence and questioning nature, and he's a capable historian because like mortal historians he's able to research past events through archaeology, interviews, and written accounts.

        At any rate, Hardestadt the Younger was Embraced in the 12th century if he is indeed Jurgen the Swordbearer (and he probably is). Hardestadt's date of Embrace in the Giovanni Chronicles was incorrect (along with a slew of other issues in the first two of those books), as the entire Elder / Younger replacement plot hadn't been devised at that point.


        Matthew Dawkins
        In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


        Website: http://www.matthewdawkins.com
        Patreon: http://https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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        • #5
          My two cents: the impression I got when I first read that passage was that Beckett was telling Hardestadt he knew he was NOT who he claimed to be while avoiding stating it outright. Beckett likes to be sarcastic but even he has more sense than to outright provoke the founder of the Camarilla.

          P.S.

          About Beckett being friends with Anatole and Lucita: the meta reason for this is the authors think it is cool. Theo Bell is an ancilla and archon (ok, a super ancilla who kills methuselahs and elders on a regular basis, but still...) but in BJD he hangs out with Lucita and Beckett as well, does that make sense? Not much but it srves the purposes of the story, so it's cool.

          Comment


          • #6
            Vampires operate on an elastic time scale, in which newly embraced vampires might argue over such vagaries as,"I was born in 2000, and embraced in 2018. You were born in 1990, and embraced in 2019. Therefore, I am your elder."

            A coterie of elders may handwave their relative ages if everyone is within a few centuries of one another. Anatole and Lucita may be conscious of the fact that Beckett is six centuries younger, but he has proven himself worthy of being called elder multiple times.

            Once someone has gotten past the velvet rope into the elder salons, an elder is an elder is an elder. This is especially true since, historically, "younger elders" have an annoying habit of unseating and diablerizing "elder elders" if the former are treated too shabbily by the latter.

            I imagine it's a little bit like a cocktail party for university faculty. Some guy who just barely got tenure last year, and a guy who spent last year accepting the Nobel prize will both be introduced to one another using the honorific "Doctor So-and-so". They are technically peers and colleagues, even if one is considerably more distinguished.
            Last edited by Nosimplehiway; 07-11-2019, 08:04 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post


              He was almost definitely Embraced in the 17th century, but you can make him as old or as young as you like in your chronicles.

              As for reasoning behind some of your points, his statement to Hardestadt could just be in mockery of the younger-than-everyone-thinks Hardestadt, his camaraderie with Lucita and Anatole stems from their enjoying his intelligence and questioning nature, and he's a capable historian because like mortal historians he's able to research past events through archaeology, interviews, and written accounts.

              At any rate, Hardestadt the Younger was Embraced in the 12th century if he is indeed Jurgen the Swordbearer (and he probably is). Hardestadt's date of Embrace in the Giovanni Chronicles was incorrect (along with a slew of other issues in the first two of those books), as the entire Elder / Younger replacement plot hadn't been devised at that point.

              If that is Beckett's embrace date, thanks. Now I can account every single Gangrel around that time in the area to figure out who his sire was (without thinking, I'd guess for Rhun of Tintagel). If none of the known kindred was the one who embraced him and it was someone unknown, that would make a really interesting 6th generation Gangrel in Britain.

              TCII also had Hardestadt "the Younger" embrace date, but if GCs was wrong, I'd rule that one out too. I already expressed my opinion on Hardestadt/Jurgen possibility in another post and it's an interesting change for the metaplot (specially in the 'what happened to Rosamund?'), but there's one thing that glitchs there: For every change in physique and personality he can get to pose as his sire, the one thing he can never change is his clan weakness. Jurgen feeds on war captives, while Hardestadt feeds only on soldiers. If he could swap his clan weakness, I'd be really interested in the how.

              - Saga
              Last edited by Saga; 07-12-2019, 02:50 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Saga View Post


                For every change in physique and personality he can get to pose as his sire, the one thing he can never change is his clan weakness. Jurgen feeds on war captives, while Hardestadt feeds only on soldiers. If he could swap his clan weakness, I'd be really interested in the how.

                - Saga

                Lore of the Clans, chapter about the Ventrue


                Choosing a New Menu
                A Ventrue who simply cannot find any blood
                that fits within her feeding restriction can
                attempt to “retrain” her restriction, but it is
                dangerous and difficult. The easiest way is to
                go into torpor after a hunger frenzy and lack of
                blood. Once the Ventrue is reawakened, her first
                hunt will determine her new feeding restriction.
                Alternatively, the Ventrue can try to shortcut the
                process. First, she needs to have no blood in her
                body (zero blood points). The Ventrue must then
                go an entire night from waking until sleep without
                feeding, making Self-Control checks for hunger
                frenzy (V20, pp. 297-299) as necessary. If the
                Ventrue frenzies and attacks someone for blood,
                others can restrain her, but as soon as blood
                enters her mouth, the process has failed, even
                if the blood ingested gives her no sustenance.
                Once the Ventrue has gone an entire night
                without any blood whatsoever, she can spend
                a permanent Willpower dot. Her next hunt will
                then determine her new feeding restriction.



                Funny thing: Hardestadt could only drink soldiers, Jurgen from war captives, and Pieterzoon from rape victims. Even Pieterzoon's taste are not that far from his lineage.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Vampires works more on a tier scale level than a linear level. Once you are an elder you are an elder, and a 300 years old elder can be as strong as 800 years old. The real jump is when you turn Mathusa, not before.

                  Lucita has been embraced in 1190, De Polonia in 1600, and yet they are on the same powerlevel.
                  Xaviar was embraced in 1351, Art Morgan in 550 and Mark Decker in 1777, and yet the powergap is small between these gangrels.
                  Germaine is 421 years younger than Jaroslav Pascek, and yet he is more powerfull.
                  Pieterzoos was embraced 200 years after Stratchona, but they have the same ammount of disciplines dot.
                  Enkidu is 1000 years older than Menele, and yet they stand on the same ground in terms of power.
                  Last edited by Undead rabbit; 07-12-2019, 06:27 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


                    Lore of the Clans, chapter about the Ventrue


                    Choosing a New Menu
                    A Ventrue who simply cannot find any blood
                    that fits within her feeding restriction can
                    attempt to “retrain” her restriction, but it is
                    dangerous and difficult. The easiest way is to
                    go into torpor after a hunger frenzy and lack of
                    blood. Once the Ventrue is reawakened, her first
                    hunt will determine her new feeding restriction.
                    Alternatively, the Ventrue can try to shortcut the
                    process. First, she needs to have no blood in her
                    body (zero blood points). The Ventrue must then
                    go an entire night from waking until sleep without
                    feeding, making Self-Control checks for hunger
                    frenzy (V20, pp. 297-299) as necessary. If the
                    Ventrue frenzies and attacks someone for blood,
                    others can restrain her, but as soon as blood
                    enters her mouth, the process has failed, even
                    if the blood ingested gives her no sustenance.
                    Once the Ventrue has gone an entire night
                    without any blood whatsoever, she can spend
                    a permanent Willpower dot. Her next hunt will
                    then determine her new feeding restriction.



                    Funny thing: Hardestadt could only drink soldiers, Jurgen from war captives, and Pieterzoon from rape victims. Even Pieterzoon's taste are not that far from his lineage.

                    Ventrue can swap prey exclusion?!?! That's new! I guess the writers are tinkering a lot with what was established for a long time.

                    - Saga

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                      Vampires works more on a tier scale level than a linear level. Once you are an elder you are an elder, and a 300 years old elder can be as strong as 800 years old. The real jump is when you turn Mathusa, not before.

                      Lucita has been embraced in 1190, De Polonia in 1600, and yet they are on the same powerlevel.
                      Xaviar was embraced in 1351, Art Morgan in 550 and Mark Decker in 1777, and yet the powergap is small between these gangrels.
                      Germaine is 421 years younger than Jaroslav Pascek, and yet he is more powerfull.
                      Pieterzoos was embraced 200 years after Stratchona, but they have the same ammount of disciplines dot.
                      Enkidu is 1000 years older than Menele, and yet they stand on the same ground in terms of power.

                      Izhim ur-Baal stats break the ruling of your model. So do a comparison between Japeth and Shaitan.

                      - Saga

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Saga View Post
                        First of all there are three accounts to consider:

                        Dark Ages novel Ventrue "But then Cainites like Julia Antasia not only chose Humanitatis, but made it the focus of their unlives. Julia Antasia is on a par with my sire in age and influence, even if Hardestadt would never admit it, thought Jürgen, poring over her words in the Letters. How has she staved off the Beast for so long"

                        Gehenna the Final Night "You’re not my elder by so many years as you lead people to believe, Hardestadt" There's this quote.

                        Beckett Jyhad Diary (Okulos embrace in 1628) Then there's this,

                        Hardestadt the Younger was embraced by 947 and Beckett is younger that Okulos, therefore, it ignores the idea of a developer of an entire line of books (Dark Ages: Vampire) useless.

                        Either, Beckett and Okuos are older than they claim, which I hope so, since V20 is "canon agnostic" or there has been a major continuity error.

                        - Saga
                        Beckett is ALWAYS trying to write checks his body can't cash.

                        He's trying to lord over his knowledge of Hardelstadt's true identity over him, despite missing SEVERELY how outclassed he is.

                        It's a feature not a bug.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Saga View Post


                          Izhim ur-Baal stats break the ruling of your model. So do a comparison between Japeth and Shaitan.

                          - Saga

                          I do not consider exceptions to the rule as meaningful as the general trend, besides Shaitan's stats came from Chaos Factor, which was... well... chaos factor... the same book where Julio Martinez (400 years old) had more discipline dots than Baba Yaga or Kemintiri. So I'd take those stats with a grain of salt, at least.

                          Plus, you know, it was the book with Samuel Haight...so... pretty meaningless taking those stats into account when we are talking about power balance.
                          Last edited by Undead rabbit; 07-12-2019, 09:07 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


                            I do not consider exceptions to the rule as meaningful as the general trend, besides Shaitan stats came from Chaos Factor, which was... well... chaos factor, the same book where Julio Martinez had more discipline dots than Baba Yaga. So I'd take those stats with a grain of salts, at least.

                            Plus, you know, it was the book with Samuel Haight...so... pretty meaningless taking those stats into account when we are talking about power balance.
                            I think some Kindred are just more gifted than others.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #15
                              I think some books are better written than others, and some "vintage" should be taken with caution. Chaos Factor came out the same year (and written by the same hand) of Berlin by Night, with its marvelous 5th generation Cobras.

                              Taking those two books in account when triying to talk about balance is pretty much pointless.
                              Last edited by Undead rabbit; 07-12-2019, 09:01 AM.

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