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  • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
    It might be a regional issue - I'm in Samoa and the video might be restricted in some places.
    And yet still part of America.

    *shakes fist at Youtube gods*


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by Athanasius View Post
      Is that actually true? I think I read one or two sentences mentioning older vampires being drawn to the east in BJD as well.
      I think that it was added to BJD to link it to V5.

      There was actually a bunch of people on RPG.net who were like, "I wanna cancel my order. You got V5 in my V20. HISSS!"

      Like they were Basarabs and it was garlic.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • Chapter Fourteen: Transvaal Nights

        Beckett has a letter addressed to him by a group of Laibon that explains in cheerfully polite terms while they staked his friend Okulus as well as poisoned him. They take the time to say it's really his fault they violated all rules of hospitality and that he should have been more open to sharing secrets instead of offering cash or deals to them. Versus, you know, them ASKING for what they want.

        They also rationalize away any damage done to him as immaterial even though it ends with him in the hands of Dracula next chapter. Basically, when he comes to visit, they lure him in with poisoned vessels and then take out his cohort. From there, Beckett goes into a hallucinatory prophetic trance. I'm really surprised Anatole doesn't play a bigger role in this.

        Honestly, I half expected a letter from him saying he understood everything Beckett said.
        The subjects discussed are the Laibon where the guest party basically poo-pahs a lot of the assumptions about the African Kindred as well as provides a diverse and wide variety of opinions on pretty much every subject while highlighting Africa is a big, diverse, cosmopolitan, and old place that can't be neatly summarized into a single tradition.

        The Laibon don't even reflect the entirety of Africa's Kindred.

        I'm going to admit that I'm unfamiliar with all of the characters and am not sure if they're original or not but I have to say they do play well off one another. There's vampires from the cities of Africa, rural regions, Setites, agnostics, mystics, and Christians. It makes it a nicely diverse bunch of African Kindred and they way they casually chat off the high-as-fuck Beckett as he undergoes his terrifying ordeal.

        Beckett gives some prophetic words about the Red Star that has disappeared and how Caine was connected to it and chose to spare the vampires of the world from Gehenna due to some bloody sacrifice made in his name. It's compared directly to Abraham and Isaac of the Bible but "the knife was not stayed."

        Maybe it was the destruction of Ravnos, The Siege of the East Coast, or something else that satisfied Caine's bloodlust but we'll probably never know. The most disturbing suggestion by one of the Laibon is that the Scourges killing all the Thin Bloods was what worked.

        We also get a discussion of the idea that the Laibon are capable of raising or lowering Generation much like the Marduk's Throat or Quenching the Lambent Flame ritual. This is an especially interesting idea as it's something that ties into the Cyclical Gehenna. Mithras and Monty Coven are able to move around much easier because of their gestalt state. It's also apparently the reason that the Sabbat are devouring Methuselahs. If a 6000 year old vampire needs to be in torpor for centuries, maybe it's better if they walk around in much younger if slightly less potent bodies.

        In the end, Beckett is put out after he answers as many of their questions as he can in his deluded rant.

        Adventures

        A whole continent's worth.

        Thoughts

        This is an interesting chapter that basically revisits Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom, which is the unfortunately named title of Africa by Night. However, honestly, I feel that KOTEK stands up a lot better than Kindred of the East even if it needed tweaking. Part of the issue being the irony that it wasn't an attemtp to be "African" the way KOTE tried to be "Asian" but dealt in much the same archetypes as the mainstream game that gave a lot more room to manuever. Plus, it was set in the Dark Ages and that didn't mean it needed to cover the entirety of history up until the present. As such, I felt this chapter did a pretty good job of tweaking the Laibon and the perception of them without completely changing things. Basically, the chapter is one long explanation of the following facts:

        1. Africa is a big place. Much bigger than Europe.
        2. There's Muslims (Ashirra), Europeans (Camarilla), Christians (Noddist), and even Asians (Wan Kuei) in Africa in addition to the "Laibon." That's in-addition to the Setites.
        3. Laibon is sort of a loose alliance of the VERY diverse population of Africa.
        4. Africa is ****ing old. A lot of the assumptions about the origins of vampiredom are quaint when dealing with the history here.
        5. A lot of Beckett's assumptions about how things work are completely wrong.
        6. They're actually not very nice people.

        I admit, 6# is actually quite amusing because positive discrimination would make the Laibon to be a much nicer and friendlier bunch of Kindred. However, this bunch of Kindred are absolutely horrifying to Beckett but never drop their bland, condescending, and platitude ridden attitude during all this. The fact it's a reversal of the "European mystic spouting prophecy" and their rationalist debate is also well-done.
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-30-2019, 12:33 AM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • I enjoyed this chapter even if it didn’t make me want to play characters in Africa. By the time KotEK came out I was already spending less time and money on RPGs in general and WoD in particular – so I never got a copy. However, I understand it gained more praise and long-term standing in the WoD than did KotE. So the people involved must have done something right.

          I do not object to KotE the way CTPhipps does. But I have remarked on some of the issues with the setting, namely orientalism. That is making the people of Asia – i.e. the Orient – exotic and interesting with no respect to them as individuals. It reduces them, their history, and their cultures to tourist kitch. This style is done inevitably for Western audiences.

          A similar issue with depictions of Africa is “Darkest Africa.” This is directs the kitch-making, vain misunderstanding, and exploitation to Africa rather than to the Middle and Far East. It’s all jungles, lost cities, and men in loin cloths with spears.

          I mention all of this because this chapter neatly sidesteps the issue. However, it also makes the continent about as inviting as Castle Dracula or Montreal. The African vampires have neither respect nor use for the Colonizing vampires from Europe or America. And this includes Beckett, who they exploit for what little information he possesses. The discussion also depicts modern African vampires in broad strokes – this is because of a space limitation. The views they possess about other vampires, including the Antediluvians and Gehenna, are interesting and hard to argue.

          The Doyalist, or out of character, reason for the chapter is to provide the readers with a chapter full of information on Africa. And to see Beckett tripping balls. However, the in-character reasons for sparing Beckett and Okolos are thin and hard to believe. It would have been simpler for the Laibon to kill the pair of them and ignore questions about what happened to the pair of white men asking pushing questions in a place they were not welcome.

          Its worth noting the magic used to drug Beckett suppresses the Beast part of a vampire, but that the Human aspect goes mad in the situation. This is an interesting read on the relationship between the two.

          Also, Beckett’s ranting tacitly suggests the Red Star may return. Soon.

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          • My read was a bit different on the African vampires in that they weren't actively out to antagonize Beckett despite the fact they didn't trust him to answer truthfully of his own accord. My suspicion is that they sent him and Okulus off without killing them because it transformed the action from "Beckett's friends will want to avenge him because Lucita is not very good at anything but killing but she is VERY good at killing" to "Beckett will nevevr deal with these assholes again" as a consequence of events.

            I actually think it makes the Laibon more believable and interesting as their actions, while reprehensible, are the kind of reprehensibility I expect from Camarilla Kindred like the Ventrue or Toreador.

            They do all sorts of horrible shit to their fellow vampires but coax it in flowery language and lies. Sort of like La Croix in Bloodlines, he's always talking nice and offering you great rewards while trying to get you killed--but doesn't try to kill you himself until he's run out of other options.

            So I actually took it as something that made it less orientalist.

            I also appreciated the fact the Camarilla in Africa is stated to be about 50% local African Kindred. They are a part of the locals and something that while this group may look down on them, is still pretty much here to stay.

            There's a bit of condesion but I got a big difference from KOTE. Which is to say, "You will get a frosty reception in Africa and Kindred may get territorial but you won't be killed on sight. Which is about the same for almost any vampire entering a new domain."

            Really, I felt the African coterie here was very cosmopolitan.

            I think this chapter made it very possible to run a "traditional" Vampire: The Masquerade game in Africa if you're an African player but w/ acknowledgement of the local culture. That was actually my primary issue with KOTE in that I *KNOW* Chinese, Tawainese, and Hong Kong V:TM players - and they had a bunch of eyerolls regarding KOTE because they just wanted to play vampire and the game made it hard to square with canon.

            Not so much here.


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            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              Chapter Fourteen: Transvaal Nights
              We also get a discussion of the idea that the Laibon are capable of raising or lowering Generation much like the Marduk's Throat or Quenching the Lambent Flame ritual. This is an especially interesting idea as it's something that ties into the Cyclical Gehenna. Mithras and Monty Coven are able to move around much easier because of their gestalt state. It's also apparently the reason that the Sabbat are devouring Methuselahs. If a 6000 year old vampire needs to be in torpor for centuries, maybe it's better if they walk around in much younger if slightly less potent bodies.
              This, and the discussion around altering bloodlines through Vitae infusion from other sources seems like a pretty big deal to me. Just how many possible Kindred progenitors are there? We've always assume that the Caine legend was at least partially true and that all the Clans came from the same source, seems to me thats very much up for discussion based on this chapter.

              This chapter feels like it has the most potential to turn the setting on its heads, in the long run.
              Last edited by Zorin001; 07-30-2019, 09:42 AM.

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              • Originally posted by Zorin001 View Post

                This, and the discussion around altering bloodlines through Vitae infusion from other sources seems like a pretty big deal to me. Just how many possible Kindred progenitors are there? We've always assume that the Caine legend was at least partially true and that all the Clans came from the same source, seems to me thats very much up for discussion based on this chapter.

                This chapter feels like it has the most potential to turn the setting on its heads, in the long run.

                As the Templar, Demba Adoula points out in the superb Revised Edition Clanbook: Lasombra, it's always going to be difficult to know the "real" history of a fictional world where anyone old enough to remember the good old days has the power to alter people's memories, and has had contact with others who can do the same to them in turn. I've always preferred to believe that there truly was some form of First Vampire in the ancient World of Darkness, and Caine is as good a name as any to assign to that entity, but that the curse of vampirism goes much farther back than any Noddist suspects. They're just wildly off about how old the world is, and how old the Curse of Caine is in turn. It could predate the Ice Age. No character in the World of Darkness can prove that they know how many generations there were between Caine and the Antedeluvians. Oral tradition is all that they, and the records they have to rely on, really have. It's all second-hand accounts, at best, as far back into the historical record as they're able to look. The First Vampire could predate Homo Sapiens and we wouldn't know.

                I don't even want to play in a Chronicle where Caine and Lilith were Sleestaks, necessarily; I just like the idea that it's possible.
                Last edited by Reasor; 07-30-2019, 03:45 PM.

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                • Speaking of Africa...


                  I think Beckett saw this while high.

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                  • Chapter Fifteen: The Price of Hospitality

                    I made a mistake and believed that Beckett actually ended up here directly after the events of Transvaal Nights but it shows here that he traveled on a train in what is obviously a direct homage to the original Dracula novel.

                    Beckett wakes up in Castle Dracula, which may or may not be the "real" Castle Dracula but I'm assuming is not as it would be uncomfortable for Vlad to deal with tourists unless the Romanian government is fine with 6 or 7 disappearing every night. Which they may be for all I know in the World of Darkness. Dracula is polite to Beckett and gives him a copy of the original Bram Stoker novel while inviting him to check out the contents of his library. Beckett wanders around Castle Dracula as half-a-prisoner and half-a-guest running into the various Brides of Dracula which include both men and women.

                    A large amount of time is spent by Beckett trying to figure out who the Brides of Dracula's true identities are with one of them being Mitru the Hunter who stole Kupala's version of the Necronomicon from the Tremere. Interesting it says before "The Fall of Vienna" which implies to me that this is an oblique reference to the destruction of the Seven.

                    Beckett seduces Dracula and it is treated matter of factly.

                    Vlad III proceeds to tell Beckett that his goal is to reassemble the Sword of Dracula that has no origins but is capable of doing shit akin to the Eye of Hazimel. It is his goal to use said weapon to kill Kupala, which I believe is either an Archdemon of the Earthbound or a Bane Incarna. I.e. it's basically akin to saying you're going to kill an Antediluvian.

                    This would normally be a pipe dream but Vlad has popularity power on his side and also has a history of breaking the rules both as a mortal as well as NPC. You could say he's the Drizzt Do'Urden of the setting except it's less obnoxious when people make clones of him at the table. I will, however, point out that Vlad may actually be doomed in this quest.

                    Dracula proceeds to kill a messenger group from another Vovoide and I would object to this breach of hospitality, except Dracula famously killed many messengers over his lifespan. Frankly, I think he should have received more disrespect before he did it, though.

                    Dracula proceeds to take Beckett to an old Gargoyle Eyrie and ends up fighting Dominic the Brujah which Beckett calls an Inconnu. I find this to be a weird statement since Dominic is in wassail and has been for centuries. He almost certainly never joined the Inconnu before he died and it's kind of sad no one has permanently put him down.

                    Caltuna then helps Beckett escape the Castle but gives him a bunch of fragments of his sword to make it so Beckett can't return.

                    Adventures

                    A good collection of adventure hooks for Transylvania updated to the Modern Nights. The Inconnu mostly rule the region but the remains of the Omen War are spread all about. While Kupala has been freed from the soil, his legacy still lives on. Beckett also has an encounter with either the Tzimsice Antediluvian or Kupala's essence (perhaps the Earthbound still lives there). Kupala is confirmed to be an Earthbound and I'm curious whether or not he's one of the Archdemons or something of lower power level. Even the weakest Earthbound is incredibly powerful but I think it'd be appropriate if Kupala was one of the ruling Archdukes.

                    There's only five of them listed in Demon: The Fallen and traditionally there's seven in these sort of things (or nine or 13). Kupala could have been an Archduke freed LATER after Lucifer failed by unleashing his former lieutenants as the Demons in the Abyss have their own leaders but that's speculating a lot on a line that was ended well before much came of it. I admit, part of this is due to the fact I want Kupala and Laamatsu to be the other Archdemons as the current crop of them is a real sausage fest.

                    (I know Kupala has been listed as a male demon but the Kupala is related to a female goddess and, well, like Gozer, "It's whatever it wants to be.")

                    We also have it confirmed that the Nosferatu Antediluvian and Toreador Antediluvian canonically did have their tete-to-tete in The Tranyslvania Chronicles with Kupala being freed by the PCs versus a nuclear war breaking out. As such, that could be the event that prevented Gehenna. I should note in my games Kupala plays a hefty role and an Archdemon is such a powerful being that them thwarting the plans of Antediluvians is entirely within their power. It's like Thanos vs. Galactus, really.
                    Thanos is powerful, don't get me wrong, but Galactus is a whole different order of being.

                    The book also confirms, as we'll get into in my notes that Dracula the film persona is a construction of Vlad III to make himself infamous as well as shape the perception of vampirism in the public consciousness. Which I actually had something similar in my books. In Straight Outta Fangton, every vampire hates Dracula for putting them in the limelight as well as being a glory hound. It also means that a lot of vampires who would die quickly from ignorance survive because it put "Okay, this is what you are, this is how you die, X, Y, Z" is now public knowledge.

                    Thoughts

                    Great chapter.

                    Did we need Transylvania by Night and the Transylvania Chronicles updated? Probably more so than Constantinople by Night but not necessarily something that required a follow up. However, Dracula is a real crowd-pleaser and Kupala is an archenemy of the Antediluvians that the player characters have chances of actually dealing with. The idea of Dracula actually killing the demon seems like something that deserves to exist as Transylavania Chronicles IV ends on an anti-climax. You save the world but Kupala is free now so what's the point?

                    Under a Blood Red Moon wasn't the world's greatest module but you save Jupiter and prevent the Wyrm from winning.

                    Re-binding or killing Kupala seems like a better ending.

                    Mind you, random aside, but this book reverses the ending of GIOVANNI CHRONICLES in the exact OPPOSITE way I just said as it revives Cappadocius from his Final-Final-We-Really-Mean-It-This-Time death in Giovanni Chronicles IV.
                    Last edited by CTPhipps; 08-09-2019, 05:36 AM.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • Chapter Fifteen: The Price of Hospitality notes

                      1. Dracula, of course, can't actually beat Kupala. It's kind of hilarious if you've read the Transylvania Chronicles but Dracula tried to destroy him once before and is the reason Kupala became freed (just a little bit) by having him do a bunch of child-sacrifices AFTER he wiped away Zellios' wards that had the Archdemon safely bound. Dracula is, in fact, kind of an idiot. The players would have to correct the hubris of his plans.

                      2. Beckett notably seduces Dracula in this story and I appreciate the simple matter of factness of vampire bisexuality (or pansexuality or hemophilia--*rimshot*) in the book. Vampires caring less about gender dates back all the way to Carmilla and works well in V:TM I think. For me, we shouldn't shy away from the sexual sexy side of the characters.

                      3. I'd love updates for most of the Dark Age characters. I'm inclined to think that Jurgen=Hardestadt is a decent enough work even if the modern day vampire is both A:] Final Dead. B:] An enormous asshole lacking any of Jurgen's redeeming qualities. However, there's still plenty of other characters like Veronique and Rosamund I'd like to know more of.

                      FYI - I'm currently proofing Dark Ages: Brujah.

                      4. Kupala is a character I would like to see updated for V5 even if he's not really someone that works well with the themes as a "you should go and kill or bind this guy." I would love to see Kupala as a Bane or Cyric (if you're a Realms fan) figure. Kupala cults as a type of regular infernalist cult the PCs can face or even deal with seems a better use for him. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

                      5. Caltuna being the childe of Lambach Ruthven is an interesting twist except that Dracula impaled his sire, forced him to be Embraced, and then killed them. It's not exactly an origin that is particularly inclined to endear one to a sibling. OTOH, its kind of funny how similar it is to the origin of the Assamite Antediluvian in Web of Knives mythology.

                      6. The Sword of Dracula is a weapon that needs an origin since Dracula, himself, didn't make it. He inherited from his dad and didn't know how it worked until he started using it as a vampire. Who made it? Yorak? Tzimisce? Kupala? Wouldn't that be ironic. However, right now it has less of an origin than the Eye of Hazimel that we can at least assume is the creation of Hazimel. Maybe there's a Master Blacksmith equivalent to Zelios.

                      7. Dominic being a vampire surviving for 800 years in wassail is genuinely impressive. It also indicates that they're not totally mindless and possessed of an animal cunning. We see he can use his sword and wights have always been able to use their disciplines. Still, I would like to know how this is possible since if he murders a human every week (let alone every night) that is 41,600 humans he's killed as a vampire alone.

                      Maybe he spent some of that time torporous?

                      8. I'd like to add I really hope that Matthew Dawkins can spare the time to put Beckett's Jyhad Diary entries up in future books for The Second Inquisition, The Beckoning, The Council of Prague and other events. I'd read the shit out of it.

                      9. I wish this chapter would canonize Mina Murray as a real life Bride of Dracula and in-universe character. I wouldn't necessarily need it to completely reflect the Green Book of V:TM opening letters but we saw it was canonized by 5th Edition. Is she a historical personage used by Stoker? A Malkavian who adopted the history as her own? What? Who? When? Where?

                      10. What IS the thing that Beckett encountered in the Transylvanian soil?
                      Last edited by CTPhipps; 04-19-2020, 12:39 PM.


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                      • I am skeptical of magic items and the like in the world of Darkness – at least if they have actual powers, such as the eye of Eye of Hazmiel. The magic should be about monsters grappling with the personal tragedy of their existence. Magic items tend to make the game about who the sword which has a +2 bonus against members of the Sabbat.

                        The current Sword of Dracula manages to pass by because it is broken. The pieces simply serve as a McGuffin to motivate a set of players to move through a game. That the question might be futile helps, actually.

                        Indeed, the idea of destroying or binding Kupala would be laughable – if it were put forward by anyone other than Dracula himself. Given that it is him, I would give it a 50/50 chance.

                        (I do wonder how the sword fragment ended up in the possession of Dominic the Brujah, how Dominic fell to wassail, and how both ended up in a former gargoyle cavern.)

                        I must disagree CTPhipps on one point – Beckett did not seduce Dracula. Beckett doesn’t have the social acumen to seduce a drunk college student. If anyone seduced anyone, then Dracula seduces Beckett. Even if this leads to the funny sequence where Beckett’s idea of a post coitus conversion involves a clumsy attempt at wheedling Dracula for information.

                        The chapters are, by designed, set up the establish plot hooks. I expect a lot of players would be happy to have Dracula as an employer. So hypothetically, Dracula could hire some player characters to retrieve the pieces of his word.

                        Dracula: You shall track this Beckett down and retrieve my stolen property.
                        PCs: Should we punish him for his impunity?
                        Dracula: Oh yes, for his violation of my hospitality, he should be punished.
                        PCs: Is there anything we should worry about?
                        Dracula: ONLY HIS CRUSH WHO IS ONE OF THE DEADLIEST ASSASSINS EVER.
                        PCs: ….
                        Dracula: Damn, I said the quiet part loud again, didn’t I?

                        Joking aside – and this is potentially an odd comparison – Dracula is something of a Hannibal Lecter figure, at least as the cannibal was played by Mads Mikkelsen. Which is to say, polite, intelligent, articulate, generally a gracious host, seductive after a fashion and so on. The character is also… differently sane, prone his hideous violence and stunning levels of cruelty, a lethal combatant and killer of men, generally unpredictable. The character is both captivating and repellent. This is as the character should be. White wolf has done an interesting job of fitting the historical figure of Tepes and the fictional Dracula fit together, and work in the setting of the World of Darkness. As presented in the chapter, the character hits just the right note. The same may be said of the Castle Dracula, which to my mind looks like the one from the Bram Stoker's Dracula (1992).

                        Even so I doubt any game involving Dracula would stay at Castle Dracula – it would simply a place they party visits from time to time, possibly to drop off bits of the sword. Or to report a failure.

                        As an aside, while living in Europe I had the good fortune to go on a Dracula tour in 2012. I’ve seen Bran Castle, Castle Hunedoara, and Poenari Castle. Bran was pretty and well maintained, but utterly slammed with tourists – so much so I started getting a head ache. I was in reasonable shape but the walk up to Poenari seriously left me winded. Danika Ruthven was a lovely host. (Actually, Hunedoara was a highlight of the trip.)

                        Edit: I think Beckett encountered an impression of Kupala, the Tzimsce Ante, or both. I don't think he would have survived an actual encounter with either of them. Also, according to his entry on the White Wolf Wiki, Dominic has not been in wassail for 800 year - as late as the end of the 2000 century he was a regular vampire.
                        Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 07-31-2019, 11:02 PM. Reason: Dracula made me do it.

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                        • The write-up of the sword given in Transylvania Chronicle III has Dracula's father forging the sword and Durga Syn enchanting it. If anyone could make a sword that could kill Kupala, it's Durga Syn. She's the real deal, embraced in the 3rd Century BCE by a Ravnos after having turned down Baba Yaga's offer!

                          I agree that if/when Kupala rears its head in this iteration of the World of Darkness, some sort of cult devoted to the demon would make better antagonists for Vampire. Kupala itself would be put to better use an an antagonist in the inevitable Demon: The Fallen reboot, where the players can feasibly operate on its level. Better that than letting a Mary Sue NPC kill it.

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                          • Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                            The write-up of the sword given in Transylvania Chronicle III has Dracula's father forging the sword and Durga Syn enchanting it. If anyone could make a sword that could kill Kupala, it's Durga Syn. She's the real deal, embraced in the 3rd Century BCE by a Ravnos after having turned down Baba Yaga's offer!

                            I agree that if/when Kupala rears its head in this iteration of the World of Darkness, some sort of cult devoted to the demon would make better antagonists for Vampire. Kupala itself would be put to better use an an antagonist in the inevitable Demon: The Fallen reboot, where the players can feasibly operate on its level. Better that than letting a Mary Sue NPC kill it.
                            I think Vampire: The Masquerade allows numerous kinds of horror but seems to dip occassionally into being Call of Cthulhu with vampires vs. demons. There's nothing wrong with vampires disrupting rituals to End the WorldTM (even if it's demons rather than Eldritch Gods -- Sorry Grumpy RPG Reviews) but like CoC, you shouldn't be fighting Hastur or Yog-Sothoth or even their avatars, it's about fighting their cultists BEFORE the ritual that ends the Earth goes off.

                            One cool thing the book indicates is that the Tzimisce's....thing...of being insane psychotic weirdos may be due to Kupala.

                            And that killing Kupala may result in a "change" to the Tzimisce.

                            Perhaps that they're no longer completely inhuman monsters.


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                            • No worries. Hunger from Beyond is totally optional. And the difference between demons in the sense of Lucifer's friends and demons in the sense of Hastor's friends is mostly trivial anyway. They are terrible creatures of vast power with alien mindsets.

                              And it is a bit of a digression, but it would be interesting - and in keeping with V5 - if the Tzimisce were also suffering some internal crisis and shake up. The Lasombra, arguably the logistical part of Sabbat leadership, realized thing were going south and in many ways they had been played by ancient vampires. Then the Tzimisce, arguably the spiritual part of Sabbat leadership, might also realize the way things were going. To whit, they had all been played by the clan founder, and those source of their unique power came from a demon. This could, should, cause quite a crisis of faith. The outcome of that could make them more playable in the V5 sense.
                              Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 08-01-2019, 12:56 AM.

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                              • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                                No worries. Hunger from Beyond is totally optional. And the difference between demons in the sense of Lucifer's friends and demons in the sense of Hastor's friends is mostly trivial anyway. They are terrible creatures of vast power with alien mindsets.
                                Indeed.

                                Also, people really should get the Horrors from Beyond supplement. It's worth the money.

                                I may do a Mi-Go meets Vampire adventure at some point.

                                And it is a bit of a digression, but it would be interesting - and in keeping with V5 - if the Tzimisce were also suffering some internal crisis and shake up. The Lasombra, arguably the logistical part of Sabbat leadership, realized thing were going south and in many ways they had been played by ancient vampires. Then the Tzimisce, arguably the spiritual part of Sabbat leadership, might also realize the way things were going. To whit, they had all been played by the clan founder, and those source of their unique power came from a demon. This could, should, cause quite a crisis of faith.
                                I've occassionally flirted with Tzimisce who aren't completely alien and horrible monsters. One of the things poor Mike Pondsmith (well not so poor now due to Cyberpunk 2077--congrats Mike) had to deal with was the fact that Cyber-Psychosis was something that bothered a lot of people. They viewed it as potentially abelist and anti-trans because altering the human body was considered a terrible sin in-universe.

                                I've always felt that Vicissitude would be a very good Discipline for a plastic surgeon, a normal surgeon, faith healer ("In Caine's name, your leg is restored!"), a weight-loss dietician, and even a saintly Salubri-like healer. I've also played a few entirely sane Tzimisce transgender characters who got the fuck out of town when they were Embraced. Something that was done with Erzulie as Protean was certainly helpful for being her true self.

                                These are concepts that are hard to manage when you have the books repeatedly hammering home they're all Ed Gein, Buffalo Bill, and Nazi doctors crossed with Hammer Horror Dracula. I like Necroscope too but it's kind of a one-dimensional portrayal that deserves to be updated like the Setites. Hell, the BAALI have been updated to be more morally ambiguous.

                                I also am going to be say it right here, The Cathedral of Flesh and giant blob monster Tzimisce Antediluvians are....silly.

                                *monocle pops from his audience*

                                Yes, yes, I know.

                                Shocking that I'd say such a thing.

                                So, I really hope they do update the Tzimisce with something in-universe that dials them a little back. I don't mind the psychotic evil Frankenstein-Dracula-Serial Killer Tzimisce but I feel like that should be more like a cult within them versus something that encompasses all of them.

                                We got things like "Vicissitude is a disease" in part because the alien inhuman Tzimicse just don't really fit a game of personal horror and damnation. They're Formori in a game that doesn't really lend itself to them.
                                Last edited by CTPhipps; 08-01-2019, 01:05 AM.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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