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[WIR] Beckett's Jyhad Diary - The Big book of Metaplot

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  • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
    This chapter suffers a bit in terms of while nominally being set in New York City it spends almost no time in the city. It is about the Tzimisce monsters, and what happens when Beckett’s player rolled a lot of botches on an intelligence check. This is a bit of a pity, because there is a lot too New York City.
    Part of the issue of New York City is that I don't think it's a terribly interesting place Kindred politics wise. Which is weird because it is the place for most series in the world. Because the city is newly acquired from the Sabbat, there's no real ability for many Kindred to have the kind of lengthy personal connections to the city that vampires in Chicago have. Even then, one of the most interesting vampires in the city (Ecaterina) is outed in another chapter.

    There are several statements about the Founder which are deeply interesting. One is that it does not want to be alone – which it an interesting way to describe the creature. Until that statement, assuming it is true, it was reasonable to just think the Founder was eating everyone and everything like the Blob. Basically, because it was hungry rather than because it was lonely.
    I like the idea that both Tzimisce and Malkav are gestalts of their entie clan. It helps establish that these particular Antediluvians are not necessarily anything approaching humanoid consciousnesses. I like the idea that Antediluvians are not really similar to humans anymore after their centuries of life. They were human-like 13,000 years ago in the Book of Nod but the things they are now are totally divorced from humanity.

    In terms of the timeline, all the vents happen in a single span of time. It probably also happens before Beckett’s adventures in Carthage – Ecaterina and Christof are still respected members of the local vampire community because Ecaterina has not been outed as formally Sabbat.
    This sounds good.

    I do not understand why Illias would fix Beckett from an in-character perspective. From an out of character perspective fixing Beckett allows the story to keep going. But from an in character perspective it does not make sense.
    I think it's simply the fact Illias is a cheerful friendly vampire as Tzimisce go. That was his DA persona after all. It's just rude to murder Beckett horribly, especially as he's a better conversation piece than a murder piece. Also, because I think Ilias wanted him to carry a message to Vykos for him.

    Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
    This, I agree with. I imagine most Salubri - including those Elders that survived since the Diablerie of Saulot - consider the Seven to be extremists. Regardless of whether a Salubri thinks the Seven "have a point", they go farther in service to their philosophy than most Salubri are willing to. They just aren't ready to commit to the kind of Jyhad Win Condition that involves killing oneself.
    I think the original idea of Saulot was that having achieved Golconda, he was no longer afraid to die and was ready to go off to whatever reward or punishment awaited death. Mind you, that falls apart with the fact that it doesn't explain why they don't just take a bath in the sun (and that is a questionably moral decision when you literally are 99% likely to kill someone in your lifetime as a vampire). However, I can easily see the Diablerie Cult of Salubri being something founded by someone who totally misinterpreted Saulot's story.

    Though I suppose it's "worked" for multiple Antedeluvians, so maybe the Seven are onto something. Most Salubri, understandably, are hesitant to find out.
    Well I don't think the Diablerie Salubri are expecting to possess their childer.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 08-16-2019, 06:18 PM.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Peace be upon Jerusalem

      The chapter opens with Beckett nearly killed by Astrid Thomas. She is still angry with him about standing her up for prom. She really needs to let go of that baggage. I mean, it’s not like he regularly creates volatile situations, spills secrets and then flees the scene meaning others have to deal with the fall out.

      (clears throat)

      Right. Jerusalem.



      Originally posted by Wikipedia on Jerusalem
      The name "Jerusalem" is variously etymologized to mean "foundation (Sumerian yeru, 'settlement'/Semitic yry' 'to found, to lay a cornerstone') of the god Shalem"; the god Shalem was thus the original tutelary deity of the Bronze Age city.

      Shalim or Shalem was the name of the god of dusk in the Canaanite religion…
      Mountains are the opposite of valleys – an odd thing to say, but bear with me for a moment.

      According to the Hebrew Bible the valley of Hinnom – in east modern Jerusalem and southish of Mt. Zion – some of the kings of Judah sacrificed children to fire. It was for this reason the valley was, or perhaps is, considered cursed by God. (Jer. 7:31, 19:2–6). Only 4-km miles from Hinnom Valley (the Valley of Gehenna) is the Temple Mount, or Mount Moriah – which is traditionally believed to be the place where God prevented the sacrifice of Isaac by his father Abraham (Genesis 22:1-19). According to Google maps, you can get from the one to the other with less than 30-minute walk. So, only a few kilometers separate the place where children were thrown into a fire to please gods from the place where a God (allegedly) stopped the sacrifice of a child.

      I wonder how long Malkav is supposed to have been down there, in the pit.

      And of course Isaacs own son Jacob had this encounter…

      Originally posted by Genesis 32
      24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him (Jacob), he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
      Beckett is saved by a woman – again. On a slightly silly note, when I read that Serenna was saving him, my mind went to Serena. Which would have been impossible, but amazing because look at those guns.



      On a less complimentary note, while I like the character of Serenna, I do not like the art depicting her. In fact, all the women in depicted by this artist are colorless and look like they are stoned. Compare the depictions of Rebekah (BJD pg. 365) and Serenna (BJD pg. 413) to the depictions of the Master of Ravens (BJD. 375) and Prospero (BJD pg. 437). The men are not milk-colored and look engaged. The women, not so much.

      In terms of the time line, this chapter mentions the Tick Tok Man – he killed Serenna’s sire. Given that, and this is apparently the first time Beckett has heard of the Tal’Mahe’Ra, I suspect this chapter falls before his adventures in Carthage. This chapter also occurs directly after his romp in Venice, which is a couple of chapters ahead.

      Cultural issues are a difficult issue to thread properly. In real life, people have no need of a 10,000 year old insane blood god to continually make Jerusalem a home to violence. According to the Wikipedia article, “…Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, captured and recaptured 44 times, and attacked 52 times.”(1)

      This chapter managed to handle the issue reasonably well, as it does not blame vampires, or Malkav (Shalim?), for that history of violence. Indeed, much of the insane violence is apparently done by vampires to themselves, to other vampires, and possibly to ghouls and blood dolls. The vampires – Shalim (Malkav?) included – merely make the situation worse. They make everything worse. They always have. They always will.

      On a related note, none of the real religions are insulted or demeaned. Lucita does disparage religion, but she speaks of all religions. And Beckett is treated reasonably well but his vampire hosts, and Serenna at least is presumably Muslim.

      However, I am an agnostic who has no stake in the ongoing conflicts over the city, so I suspect I am not one to judge such an issue.

      Lastly, I wonder how often Malkav does this with his clan? How often does he “update the software” so to speak behind the madness network? How often does he create (in triplicate) backs up his mind among his brood?

      I suspect it happens pretty often.

      1. And that was just last Tuesday.

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      • Mostly on topic, this video always gives me chills.

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        • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
          The chapter opens with Beckett nearly killed by Astrid Thomas. She is still angry with him about standing her up for prom. She really needs to let go of that baggage. I mean, it’s not like he regularly creates volatile situations, spills secrets and then flees the scene meaning others have to deal with the fall out.
          Beckett is later informed by Alastors he's on the shortlist for the Red List and is aghast. Honestly, that is the least surprising thing I have ever heard. I'm surprised Hardelstadt didn't fast track him the moment he tried to blackmail him with his "true identity." Not because necessarily Hardelstadt has anything to fear about being his sire for centuries (I suspect more people know about it in the Inner Circle of the Camarilla than Hardelstadt would be comfortable with) but because of the sheer audacity of Beckett trying to do that to HIM.

          Fun fact: I just finished reading the V20 Red List book for the first time and am completing my education in that line. My favorite character uses were Barrow (albeit we didn't learn much more about the Hunters Hunted classic character) and Ayisha Jocastian who did my character's plan to mass produce the Book of Nod. It also has the retcon that the entirety of the modern day Children of Osiris bloodline may just be a scam by Keminitri to have disposable soldiers against the Followers of Set.

          Which is both disappointing and makes them 99% more appropriate for Vampire: The Masquerade's themes.

          According to the Hebrew Bible the valley of Hinnom – in east modern Jerusalem and southish of Mt. Zion – some of the kings of Judah sacrificed children to fire. It was for this reason the valley was, or perhaps is, considered cursed by God. (Jer. 7:31, 19:2–6). Only 4-km miles from Hinnom Valley (the Valley of Gehenna) is the Temple Mount, or Mount Moriah – which is traditionally believed to be the place where God prevented the sacrifice of Isaac by his father Abraham (Genesis 22:1-19). According to Google maps, you can get from the one to the other with less than 30-minute walk. So, only a few kilometers separate the place where children were thrown into a fire to please gods from the place where a God (allegedly) stopped the sacrifice of a child. I wonder how long Malkav is supposed to have been down there, in the pit. And of course Isaacs own son Jacob had this encounter…
          I feel like Abraham and Isaac loses a lot of its context as a storyline if you're unaware that human sacrifice of not just children but family members was a common thing in the area. The storyline as itself seems like, "ultimate test of faith." But it's also, "this is a thing people do but our God does NOT do this thing." It's notably talked about in An American Weredeer in Michigan (self-promotion but relevant self-promotion) where the protagonist finds an ancient caern of (apparently) sacrificed children's skeletons and tries to parse what sort of fucked up supernatural entity would want this. Her mentor tells her that she shouldn't be focusing on the god but ask what sort of humans were doing it and why.

          On a less complimentary note, while I like the character of Serenna, I do not like the art depicting her. In fact, all the women in depicted by this artist are colorless and look like they are stoned. Compare the depictions of Rebekah (BJD pg. 365) and Serenna (BJD pg. 413) to the depictions of the Master of Ravens (BJD. 375) and Prospero (BJD pg. 437). The men are not milk-colored and look engaged. The women, not so much.
          A part of me was initially kind of iffy about her blonde, white haired pretty girl appearance then I remembered this was really stupid of me. When PRINCE OF PERSIA came out a decade ago, Gemma Arterton and Jake Gylenhal were called out by the media for "white-washing the cast." A letter was then sent to the New York Times (i believe) by an Iranian government department with too much time on their hands pointing out that Iranians could and did look exactly like those people.

          https://iranian.com/2008/03/06/blond...eyed-iranians/



          In terms of the time line, this chapter mentions the Tick Tok Man – he killed Serenna’s sire. Given that, and this is apparently the first time Beckett has heard of the Tal’Mahe’Ra, I suspect this chapter falls before his adventures in Carthage. This chapter also occurs directly after his romp in Venice, which is a couple of chapters ahead.
          A random aside but the Tal'Mah'Ra has (at least from the original Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand) no interest in preserving the Salubri Remnants. I've noticed this but while they hate the Tremere, protected the Cappadochians, and shield the True Brujah--there's never any hint the Salubri have received any aid from them. You'd think the Salubri Antitribu would work better with them than the Sabbat as a whole.

          It makes me think the Salubri are on their shit list for some reason.

          Cultural issues are a difficult issue to thread properly. In real life, people have no need of a 10,000 year old insane blood god to continually make Jerusalem a home to violence. According to the Wikipedia article, “…Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, captured and recaptured 44 times, and attacked 52 times.”
          Random aside but I am a religious person of a ecumenist Christian bent but I've often experimented with the idea that Malkav is a person who has been instrumental to the development of Western religion in the setting. Either he's attracted to it and mystical religion as a whole or he's actually part of the reason that religion exists in the first place. Malkavians being very Western in their religious views (God directly contacts you via divine revelation) while the Salubri are very Eastern in their religious views (you study meditation and develop yourself to becoming divine)--though there's obviously a great deal of crossover.

          This chapter managed to handle the issue reasonably well, as it does not blame vampires, or Malkav (Shalim?), for that history of violence. Indeed, much of the insane violence is apparently done by vampires to themselves, to other vampires, and possibly to ghouls and blood dolls. The vampires – Shalim (Malkav?) included – merely make the situation worse. They make everything worse. They always have. They always will.
          The Cult of Shalim, of course, plays a fairly prominent role as a loresheet as well as the religion of a Lasombra NPC in V5. Apparently, we're going to get more information on the Cult of Shalim inside Cults of the Blood Gods as it is being updated to be the "official" Lasombra Abyssal cult from what I can tell.
          We've had stories of Lasombra Abyssal mysticism before and at least one Infernalist sect plus Moncada's unique brand of Christianity that believes powerfully in his own damnation (that allows him to maintain TRUE FAITH somehow).

          However, the Cult of Shalim seems to be older. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you view it, the Cult of Shalim is a annihilationist cult that desires the end of suffering through the annihilation of reality. This is simultaneously a real life philosophy branch with some caveats as well as the goal of both the Nephandi as well as Cult of Shar from Forgotten Realms.

          A branch of it also played a part in ARCANUM: OF STEAMWORKS AND MAGIC OBSCURA where the villain wishes to wipe out the world's population because he's discovered Heaven is real so "life" is a stupid thing to have.

          On a related note, none of the real religions are insulted or demeaned. Lucita does disparage religion, but she speaks of all religions. And Beckett is treated reasonably well but his vampire hosts, and Serenna at least is presumably Muslim. However, I am an agnostic who has no stake in the ongoing conflicts over the city, so I suspect I am not one to judge such an issue.
          I think a bit more about the fact this is a city of Camarilla, Ashirra, and possibly other groups would be interesting--especially with local hunter groups like the Society of Leopold, the Knights Templar, the Judges, and those Muslim hunters from the Hunters Hunted II would have been interesting.

          Why would Malkav choose Jerusalem as his resting place, though? Is it because he's influencing the True Faith of the region or is it for another reason? Some ideas I've toyed with are:

          * Malkav wishes to sleep forever and the True Faith will keep him from ever rising again.
          * Malkav wishes to burn the evil out of himself so only under the Holiest City in the World can he keep the pain of God's light on his flesh in sufficient amounts to feel it.
          * A way to bleed out his violence and hatred among the faithful ala Brujah and Carthage (I had this idea before BJD).
          * It only became the holiest city on Earth because people picked up Malkav's connection to the Divine, however tenuous, from his dreams ala Cthulhu and R'lyeh.
          * Malkav attempting to feed off the faith and holiness of the area to become closer to God.
          * A way to spite God by torturing and corrupting his believers.

          Lastly, I wonder how often Malkav does this with his clan? How often does he “update the software” so to speak behind the madness network? How often does he create (in triplicate) backs up his mind among his brood?
          I tend to think the Malkavians are like the Setites and Giovanni in that they are one of the clans who have no ambiguity about their founder's existence and continued presence.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • I'm not offended by the blondness, just the milky color and dopey expression.

            And maybe Malkav is somewhat trapped by the holiness and truth faith. It was not something he expected, but eventually the growth of the city, and its faiths, means he is somewhat trapped in the pit. Or possibly that his actual departure would be as potentially destructive as Tzimisce smashing his way through Times Square.

            Also, maybe the pit was originally the lair of Lasombra, before that founder went to Sicily and Malkav just moved into the vacant lair ages ago.

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            • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
              I'm not offended by the blondness, just the milky color and dopey expression.

              And maybe Malkav is somewhat trapped by the holiness and truth faith. It was not something he expected, but eventually the growth of the city, and its faiths, means he is somewhat trapped in the pit. Or possibly that his actual departure would be as potentially destructive as Tzimisce smashing his way through Times Square.

              Also, maybe the pit was originally the lair of Lasombra, before that founder went to Sicily and Malkav just moved into the vacant lair ages ago.
              Amusingly, Set was speculated to be Jesus by the Followers of Set in the original book or somehow connected since he disappeared around the same time.

              So was Caine by others.

              So there's all manner of interesting people hanging around the region apocryphally.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • Chapter Twenty-Four: The False Caine



                Beckett heads to Berlin, Germany (as opposed to Berlin, Nebraska), which he hasn't visited since not that long after the Berlin Wall went up when the damage from WW2 was still visible. He was contacted by Vykos who, in what is uncharacteristic generosity, tells him where the Book of the Grave War is. My opinion is this is due to the lifeboon that Vykos owes Beckett for saving them in the next chapter. Mind you, it's in the hands of Marie and she hates Beckett and is a fucking Nazi.

                I don't mean that figuratively. Marie is an actual (former?) member of the Schutzstaffel. Good job, Beckett. Giving her immortality and superpowers was a fucking great idea.
                He meets a woman named Ulfrike who is a big fan of the False Caine.

                Beckett meets with Abraham Wolfe who Beckett basically acts like is the solution to the problems of Berlin being a Camarilla clusterfuck as the entire tone of his internal conversation about the city is dismissive. The irony that V5 makes it clear Abraham turned a mostly docile Anarch populace into a second California Free State because they just got so pissed off they murdered all the Ivory Tower in the city. A warning for Kevin Jackson I suppose.

                Mind you, I've always felt the Camarilla was the French Revolution waiting to happen--and then did and they learned nothing.
                Beckett arrives and is molly coddled by the locals who really just want to keep an eye on him until he leaves. Beckett ends up contacting one of his old flames (there's no indication of romantic interest but she's a Toreador so I automatically assume they're an old flame whenever they're meeting anyone up to and including Nosferatu). She puts him in touch with the local Sabbat bishop Strohmann.

                You know, the guy who was a slave trader who may have founded the Samedi. What a bunch of assholes.
                What's hilarious is that the following scene, I swear, is an homage to The Big Lebowski with the Nihilists. Gunther goes, in probably the most comically SNL-esque accent since Sprockets, "We know you have the map, Beckett!" They then tell him what he wants to know while expecting him to still give over what he wants. People like Karl Screckt and Gunther seem to assume Beckett has any form of personal honor--so clearly, Germans just don't get him. The Sabbat then proceed to curbstomp Beckett before he's rescued.



                Ulfrike gives Beckett some thoughts on the Caine myth.

                Beckett then goes to an abandoned cigarette factory and then Marie promptly kicks his ass before staking him through the Book of the Grave War. Thankfully, Beckett made a deal earlier that he'd be rescued by the Prince when this inevitably happened. I'm assuming Marie is Sabbat and why not? Fucking Nazis.

                Bruce Dylan from the Red List also makes an appearance.

                Hilariously, Beckett leaves immediately after his rescue and leaves a note that explains Strohmann never even knew Beckett was in London but this was all the product of The Big Lewboski Nihilist, Gunther. There's even a bit of humor where Bruce Dylan tells him to not fuck it up, immediately after Ulfrike saying how she rescued him easily.

                I find this bit interesting as Dylan is an Infernalist and openly so. So Strohmann is throwing the Sabbat Inquisition to the wind by inviting him to help.
                So Beckett, at last, has the Book of the Grave War. Slightly used due to the wooden stake pressed through its surface into his heart.

                Adventures

                Berlin by Night is one of those supplements that often gets put onto the trashfire list but I think of it as very much akin to Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand. It has some terrible ideas, some of the worst in the entire gameline (Himmler--oh and Goering too because one member of the Nazi High Command as a vampire isn't enough! Snake vampires!). However, it also had some really good ideas like Gustav Briedenstein the Wall-Building Arrogant Man-Child vampire who is quite possibly the most powerful but worst Prince of all time (no comment). Also, the fact he was eventually a Blood Bound puppet of the Brujah Council in East Berlin while his childe was the reformist Prince of West Berlin. I really liked that dynamic because the mortal politics just informed a very old sire veruss childe conflict. Gustav was also a wonderfully tyrannical P.O.S. and the perfect Prince for the players to hate.

                Gustav died of the Blood Curse and not having read the Red Death Trilogy, I can't say whether it was inside the books or just a retcon in the Encyclopedia Vampirca because everyone hated the book back then. That put Wilhelm Waldburg in charge of the entire city, which was a bit of a problem because Wilhelm is a decent-enough sort for a Prince. I mean, all Elder Ventrue are bastards but he was less of a bastard than most. This book has him replaced with a more nicely assholish Camarilla vampire and that brings us to the issue at hand: that all the information in this chapter is outdated.

                As of V5, the Anarchs have overthrown the Camarilla government of Berlin and established a European Anarch Free State in, well, the city where the European Anarch movement has one of its biggest homes (aside from London, which I think they could do the same if they managed to figure out a way to get past the Second Inquisition). I really liked the story in V5 because it presented Wilhelm Waldberg as having been kicked out by the Camarilla because he was not hard ENOUGH on the Anarchs but this had resulted in them not uprising--until they did under the new Prince.' I feel kind of bad because there's a lot of interesting stuff here that just got overridden. On the other hand, it does make a certain thematic resonance that the Camarilla's attempts to be heavy handed and draconian is it's WORST possible response.

                I will say William Waldburg is probably enjoying at least some small measure of revenge. They appointed a frigging EX-SABBAT to his Praxis and lost the city. He might not be in the best position post-Anarch revolt but he's at least probably enjoying a martini glass of vitae at the misfortunes of whoever bright idea that was.

                Thoughts

                I really enjoyed this chapter as it's one of the best ones for showing Beckett's character and him bouncing against strong personalities. The whole Cold War, noir feeling (The Third Man was set against a backdrop of East vs. West after all) works extremely well with Beckett's complete indifference to the Jyhad's sides. We also see him run up against people who are every bit as good at the game as him, if not better. He tries to brush off Gunther and while that's understandable, it almost gets him killed.

                We also see Beckett dealing with his "revenge Embrace" of Marie and the consequences thereof. I'd like to see more information on Marie because, well, I would love to have my players kill her. Fucking Nazis. Barring any description of illustration, I choose to believe she looks identical to Alison Doody.

                Really, this chapter shows what the benefits of a good story editor can do as it removes the worst parts of Berlin by Night and keeps the best, resulting in a city that I think "pops" a great deal more than New York City by Night and if not as good as Chicago by Night then certainly is still one of the better ones. All it needed was someone to reign back some of its issues.
                Last edited by CTPhipps; 08-17-2019, 11:03 AM.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                Comment


                • Chapter Twenty-Four: The False Caine notes

                  1. I have a small complaint about this book in the fact that Ankla Hotep doesn't actually make an appearance. As far as I know, he survived the events of the False Caine adventure and we never actually learn anything about him. What's his past, what's his motivation, and what was his experience being Caine? One of the things that the Setite Blood Sorcery did was that while he was empowered by non-descript magical amulets, he REALLY WAS Caine, or at least the Tulpa Buddhist version of him. I feel like Beckett interviewing him would have been awesome.

                  "I feel like becoming a taxi driver."

                  2. I have the sneaking suspicion that the person who fucked over Wilhelm Waldburg was probably Hardelstadt the Younger. We know that, via retcon, Hardelstadt made his haven around Berlin even if probably not in the actual city. It strikes me that he was always more of a Gustav man than a Wilhelm man and was irritated that the former was finally struck down by the blood curse even if he'd made himself a Brujah puppet. Certainly, HtY's style of rulership was more tyrranical and fitting the old Prince.

                  3. Random aside but my assumption of who sired Hardelstadt the Elder is Eiggerman since he's a 4th generation Vampire in the immediate area. I like when these kind of bloodlines are all interconnected and we make use of the glut of old-as-crap vampires from previous supplements. It's why I believe Isaac Abrams is the childe of Christopher.

                  4. I approve of the fact that there's literally only one Nazi in the entire book and Marie doesn't seem to be anything but a minor member of it. I have a feeling that the Kindred of the city would be particularly thorough in rooting those out among their ranks. Not just because they'd rather not be defined by them but because the Nazis brought such ruin on their city and divided it in two. I mucg prefer characters like Antoinette who represent the city's cinema history.

                  5. I admit, I make an exception for Dieter Kotlar who I have used in my games as a Nazi survivor and Sabbat Templar. Removing historical Nazis, I have no problem (so to speak) with the idea of a Brujah Hitler fanboy and in my adaptation of the False Caine story, I had a story that was Dieter being a 9th generation Brujah who was Hitler's bodyguard and saved him from the dozen or so attacks by supernaturals to make the world a better place by removing Adolf. Dieter also helped make the Sabbat even more of a shitty group by Embracing only white racists.

                  The PCs put an end to the guy when he was about to become a Chicago Primogen with an eye to the Princeship (his past hidden). Basically, as a certain gamer said in the V5 Q&A, there's no problem with Brujah who are Nazis--it's just if you want to play a Nazi, in which case fuck off from his table (and mine).
                  6. Ending my Nazi digression, it's for the best and realistic that the writer put an end to the Final Reich in this chapter for good.

                  7. I'm assuming Stefan Rutiger is the leader of the V5 revolution that took the city from its new prince in Wolfe. I actually am happy for the guy because it gives him an end to a long and unfortunate story of being kicked around by society. I'm also assuming that Rudi is the new Sheriff equivalent (Cleaner?) of Berlin by Night because he seems to be a key figure in the Movement and Berlin is his stomping grounds.

                  8. I like the character of Ulrike and the whole idea of a nerdy Malkavian Noddist fangirl is something I'm probably going to put into my games. I also like that she's a Beckett fangirl even if Beckett misses this is something he should encourage (and probably has dashed any admiration for by the time he's met her). Lucita's note about, "She was waiting for me with a cardboard sign using my name" is hilarious.

                  9. The Berlin Wall being magically warded to prevent Kindred from crossing is damned weird but woks interestingly as a line of demarcation between the Sabbat and Camarilla sides of the city. Wolfe is not a strong Prince and his inability to project power over half the city is a cool bit of twistedness.

                  10. I wonder what Nefertiti and Kementiri think of one another. Is it possible the former is actually just a false identity of the latter? I only make this suggestion because the False Caine plan is COMPLETELY INSANE and how many bizarre 4th generation female Followers of Set w/ such ridiculous plans running around are there? Certainly, it doesn't seem to benefit the FoS and I could easily see Kementiri planning on bringing the Camarilla's wrath down on her clan.
                  Last edited by CTPhipps; 08-17-2019, 11:58 AM.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • Sorry been meaning to get back to this thread, just lack of time. Pesky real life!

                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    I was figuring spreading over the course of one a week for about two months. But mostly it was the case of attempting to lengthen the discussion, not get directly to the finish line. I'm sure the books will be done when they're done. You can't rush art. Sorry if I gave that impression.

                    I hope you're still enjoying our re-read. Today I found out you guys DID mention the Blood Curse in the Germany section, so I can now remove The Red Death Trilogy off my list of things this book didn't cover. I'm fully expect to see the Children of Osiris somewhere now.
                    Maybe rather than try to drag things out to prolong discussion, certain past topics could be re-visited? Not everything of course, but BJD is a huge source and it's got tons of little details to wrangle over and could be revisited. I sometimes find that I make new discoveries and connections after a second or even a third read-through, because I start to notice things I might have missed the first time around.

                    It might be good to start brainstorming a list of topics to re-visit as addendums or additional notes. Heck, the brainstorming will be a good way to extend discussion itself.

                    Edit: Revisiting past topics also gives new users a chance to return to older topics without re-quoting stuff weeks or more in the past, which would further help extend discussion. I'm willing to bet there are a ton of connections yet to be made, as well!

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                    • There's plenty to discuss in BJD and I was perhaps premature in jumping from a rich lore source as this to already thinking about upcoming supplements. I sometimes get ahead of myself, which is probably why I have six open trilogies to finish up.

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                      • Well like I said if you take a view of 'revisiting' the material (especially with an eye towards connecting it to other stuff) then you aren't really 'rushing' it. It's just the first pass. And revisiting it as I said also gives opportunity for newer users to get involved in past topics they missed.

                        One thing I've always loved about WoD was the wealth of material to pick over and the complexity. It can be daunting, frustrating, and even contradictory, but its interesting to me to pick over and see what puzzle pieces I might fit together. I've probably revisited various aspects a dozen times or more between now and when I was really into this almost two decades ago, and I expect I'll keep revisiting things as new details and new ideas occur to me. It's like 40K that way, which is another of my favorite settings.

                        It's also why I also get ahead of myself (I always end up spending more time reading stuff because I keep adding new things to my list as I read.) The more interesting puzzles or ideas I discover, the worse it gets.

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                        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                          [B]

                          3. Random aside but my assumption of who sired Hardelstadt the Elder is Eiggerman since he's a 4th generation Vampire in the immediate area. I like when these kind of bloodlines are all interconnected and we make use of the glut of old-as-crap vampires from previous supplements. It's why I believe Isaac Abrams is the childe of Christopher.
                          I get the impression that Christopher is pretty much persona non grata with White Wolf since he's never reappeared since LA by Night, which is a pity as I've always liked him.

                          Another one I would have liked to have seen in BJD was Dark Selina, Roman Perndragon and the invasion of New England which is a plot that seems to have disappeared down the memory hole.

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                          • Originally posted by Zorin001 View Post

                            I get the impression that Christopher is pretty much persona non grata with White Wolf since he's never reappeared since LA by Night, which is a pity as I've always liked him.

                            Another one I would have liked to have seen in BJD was Dark Selina, Roman Perndragon and the invasion of New England which is a plot that seems to have disappeared down the memory hole.
                            No, we just lacked the space to touch on much from those plots. I remembered, but they (along with a trip to Australia) were the only parts I was unable to include.


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                            • It's an impressive collection of lore that I honestly am amazed missed anything.

                              I admit, metaplot isn't for everyone but it was always a driving force for me picking up V:TM supplements. As much as I loved vampire, it wasn't until V20 announced this book that I became intrigued about returning to the setting (despite the fact I was STing it with Requiem rules). The idea of the world moving forward from the 90s to the New Teens enticed me. I still need to finish my collection of V20 supplements but I've been incredibly entertained by the books since Beckett's Jyhad Diary and the V20 ones I have read.
                              Last edited by CTPhipps; 08-17-2019, 02:04 PM.


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                              • Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post

                                No, we just lacked the space to touch on much from those plots. I remembered, but they (along with a trip to Australia) were the only parts I was unable to include.
                                Oh I understand completely, when you are dealing with such a dense amount of lore as VtM you wouldn't be able to cover everything. The amount you did cram in to BJD was amazing, it's one of my favourite books for VtM.

                                Australia would have been an interesting one, since it's only really been touched in passing and I would have liked to have seen more of Sarrasine.

                                I raise Christopher as I just find it odd he's never reappeared since 1994, not even an oblique mention in any edition since. Weird since I'd probably put him just behind Menele and Helena as Methuselahs who helped define the 4th and 5th Gen in setting.

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