Originally posted by Bluecho
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Certainly characters are stories that need to have death to not only add stakes to the story but also so that other characters may increase their role in it. As long as certain narrative positions are held, characters are never going to change whereas if you remove others then they can grow into their roles.
To use our examples from this game:
Kevin Jackson and Lodin: Kevin Jackson as the ruler of the Chicago Bloods is an okay character and was always a fairly interesting Ventrue. However, until the death of Prince Lodin, he never really got the chance to become the much more fascinating character that we saw in CBN5E. He's reached his full potential and simultaneously is probably going to fall spectacularly. That is a much more interesting use than the majority of games I saw him used for before.
Damien and Neon: I hate to use this example but the death of Neon and Damien's other mentors are good uses of the character. The tragic death of an 8-10 year old Kindred Innocent is something that shows the horror and danger of Kindred life in a way that underscores just how terrible the life is. It also gives a good reason for why Damien would turn on his fellow Anarchs as he's seen how insecure their life is.
Theo Bell, the Anarchs and Hardestadt: The death of the Camarilla's founder means that Theo Bell is now a wanted man that will never be able to live anywhere but Anarch territory. It's also shattered the perceived invincibility of the Camarilla. The Camarilla as a whole benefits because now it has a big sized hole where there used to be Hardestadt lording over it.
The Tremere, The Second Inquisition and The Council of Seven: Without the bedrock of the Tremere clan, every Tremere has a character arc to explore. It also is a wonderful way of showing that the Second Inquisition is not something to be
trifled with.
You could have done anything with Jan. Instead, you can do nothing with him, because he's dead.
Robb Stark dying is awesome at the Red Wedding.
Adding a few more people to it doesn't really add much. Why Lady Stoneheart was a big deal (until she wasn't in the show).
Concerning Jan himself, I liked him as a character (though not necessarily as a person) because of how well he perfectly encapsulates Clan Ventrue. He's proud, fastidious, professional, diplomatic, holds the party line, is a complete tool of his superiors (both in the Camarilla and Clan Ventrue), and despite all pretensions of nobility is still a monster. His feeding preference is fascinating BECAUSE it's problematic. It leaves us without any doubt that he, like all Ventrue, is still a parasite and abuser, gathering and cultivating PEOPLE in order to satisfy his particular taste. Even willing to stoop to reprehensible lows, when he gets desperate enough for a drink. That is Clan Ventrue in a nutshell, and why Jan Pieterzoon works as their face.
I've heard V:TM described as Anne Rice meets Thomas Harris when doing personal horror.
I don't know, maybe I'm just weird. But, like with Jan, I find myself more tolerant of horrible people in fiction than I ever would be in Real Life. Maybe I'm just drawn to the charismatic ones, or I can appreciate their awfulness as having value in a narrative and character sense.
HOWEVER, I should also admit part of my issue with V:TM characters and racist NPCs is the fact that it can go horribly wrong. To make a long story short, KINDRED OF THE EAST caused a lot of tension in my area as local gamers used the animosity between the Kueijin and Cainites to engage in some in-character racism. Ruined a couple of groups.
But yes, you're right, I think of V:TM as best described as an "action horror" game. The horror part requires detestable Kindred and monsters.
Going back to an earlier point, the Sourthern Lords are why I dislike V5, and specifically the Beckoning. We need MORE Methuselahs in the Jyhad, not FEWER. Especially ones that haven't been up and active in a while.
The Beckoning means that the player characters can theoretically be movers and shakers in the Camarilla as well as potentially take down the limited number of Methuselahs around.
To use a Southern Lord example, if say, Jurgen turned out to have lived through the Dark Ages and didn't become Hardestadt but instead a Plantation Owner then taking him down is a good Chronicle.
But say you destroy Jurgen--and there's like a dozen others.
There's no progress in the campaign chronicle. Nothing matters. It's like taking down one Ringwraith.
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