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[WIR] Beckett's Jyhad Diary - The Big book of Metaplot

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  • Personally, I don't mind Caitiff and Thin Bloods both being around. I just don't consider redundancy to be a problem. And the two groups are different enough that they can occupy distinct niches.

    A Caitiff, after all, is a regular Kindred of their Generation who just doesn't manifest a Clan/Bloodline weakness. A clever and careful Caitiff could pass as a full-blooded vampire, depending on the Clan they're trying to mimic. It's a high risk game, pretending to be something you're not, but the rewards are obvious. The main element working against Caitiff in the Jyhad is Social in nature.

    Thin Blood problems stem directly from a weakness in vampiric ability. Whether a high Generation or simply unlucky (the "Thin Blood" Flaw isn't limited to just 14+ Gens), the vampire is at a disadvantage in terms of raw power. Less able to survive the rigors of the Jyhad, especially when things get messy. At least a Caitiff is AS powerful as a "full-blood" Kindred, all else being equal.

    As such, whether "on the streets" or "incognito as another Clan", Caitiff and Thin Bloods generally "play" very differently.


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    • Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
      Personally, I don't mind Caitiff and Thin Bloods both being around. I just don't consider redundancy to be a problem. And the two groups are different enough that they can occupy distinct niches.

      A Caitiff, after all, is a regular Kindred of their Generation who just doesn't manifest a Clan/Bloodline weakness. A clever and careful Caitiff could pass as a full-blooded vampire, depending on the Clan they're trying to mimic. It's a high risk game, pretending to be something you're not, but the rewards are obvious. The main element working against Caitiff in the Jyhad is Social in nature.

      Thin Blood problems stem directly from a weakness in vampiric ability. Whether a high Generation or simply unlucky (the "Thin Blood" Flaw isn't limited to just 14+ Gens), the vampire is at a disadvantage in terms of raw power. Less able to survive the rigors of the Jyhad, especially when things get messy. At least a Caitiff is AS powerful as a "full-blood" Kindred, all else being equal.

      As such, whether "on the streets" or "incognito as another Clan", Caitiff and Thin Bloods generally "play" very differently.

      True. That Caitiff and Thin Bloods have in common being treated as dregs of kindred society due to general prejudice (enforced by some takes of Noddist scripture) doesn't have to make them the same, prejudice all too commonly has many forms that might or not mix-&-match, run at cross-purposes and so on.

      Damn, i once had a city with a Caitiff primogen - who became the PC's patron to boot - and he was a Noddist (Lilithist) and one of the first to rage about Thin Bloods and call for their curtailing!

      That said he was oppossed to simple execution in the streets by hounds & such - he much prefered to have Thin Bloods and their sires captured, thrown in a pit arena, to then have hunger, fates - and sanctioned diablerie - sort them out. The group loved that weirdo.
      Last edited by Baaldam; 07-21-2019, 01:16 PM.

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      • Chapter Nine: The Spark of Civil War

        Beckett receives an invitation to come down to Mexico with Lucita at the behest of the Regent of the Sabbat, Melinda Gailbraith. Beckett is less than pleased by this but can't turn down the opportunity since the Sabbat's archives on Gehenna lore are the greatest repository in the world that he doesn't have access to.

        There's a lot of interesting tidbits before the actual "plot" of the chapter actually begins with the first being that Zachary Sikorsky has been semi-found out and masquerades as not only the already-deceased Regent (which Beckett and Lucita don't know) but also as themselves masquerading as the already-deceased Regent--claiming to be her body double. That's actually brilliant.

        We also find out that the Gehenna War is already ongoing by this time and that "hundreds" of Sabbat warriors have already journeyed into the Middle East to seek out Antediluvian tombs as well as those of their most ancient servants. This is doubly notable because the book later gives in this chapter a concrete date for Beckett's Jyhad Diary. Zachary is stated to have been impersonating the Regent for sixteen years and Clanbook: Tzimsice was released in 2001. Which means that Beckett's Jyhad Diary takes place in 2017. Furthermore, all of the previous chapters happen more or less one after the other, so that means that it's actually had quite a few things on the timeline re-arranged. This is incredibly important information.

        Well, no sooner do they arrive than the building explodes and they are stuck with being at ground zero for the next Sabbat Civil War. This gets Beckett a call from Vasantasena who tells Beckett to come visit her.

        There's some interesting bits here that are pure character-development like Beckett's disgust at playing football (soccer for us heathens) with someone's head as well as other Sabbat tests. Beckett may be here on the Regent's invitation but the Sabbat still feel the need to test his bonafides and our antihero is old enough as well as powerful enough to pass. Albeit, it's probably a good thing he kept his generation secret.

        I'm not terribly familiar with Vasantasena but she makes a great impact here as we're reminded that not only was she one of the OG Anarchs but that she is protected by her status as a Sabbat living saint despite the fact she's a believer in Humanity over Paths of Enlightenment. Also, that she's a strong opponent of the Vaulderie--perhaps because that permanently links a person to Kupala. A certain Nosferatu comments on the fact that the Daitya and Danava are sources of great insight into Gehenna.

        Vasantasena was quite beautiful and quite nude. Regrettably, the effect was spoiled by the scores of long thin needles piercing her flesh at odd angles. She sat, stiff-backed, on the floor in a lotus position. Or at least, I think it was a lotus position. Eastern mysticism isn't my strong suit.
        -A good entrance that deserves to be used as an introduction.

        Vasantasena talks at great length about Gehenna and says that the Sabbat need to get out of the Gehenna War (which is now officially part of V20 since this is it's first and last mention here). She says she thought Gehenna happened 9 times in the past and this is the 10th. She also states that the Red Star and other apocalyptic signs were somehow "averted" and that the End Times were stopped.



        "WE ARE CANCELLING THE APOCALYPSE!"
        -Jalan Aajav


        The Sabbat Civil War has apparently already begun before the False Regent's body is cold with Black Hand vs. Inquisition. Gehenna Crusaders vs. Moderates. Priests diablerizing Bishops. I initially remember V5 subverting the Fourth Sabbat Civil War for the Gehenna Crusade but it seems like it actually happened and led directly to the events of V5. So the Sabbat have a Civil War, Gehenna Crusade losses, the defection of the Lasombra, and lose both Mexico City as well as Washington D.C in short order.

        Beckett finds out that Zachary has been a puppet of Vasantansena and Jalan Aajav for the better part of a decade and only now have they been undone. Beckett shows some surprising shock at the fact that Zachary was a man impersonating a woman too. She also states that the Black Hand is having its own separate Civil War against the Black Hand with Jalav Ajava being the only "true' Seraph with another in torpor.

        One thing I appreciate about Onyx Path Publishing is they don't seem to believe there's any idea that is completely worth throwing out unless it's racist or misogynist. The True Hand was a deeply silly concept but they've devoted a significant amount of space to trying to make it work here. The idea of it versus the "Loyalist" Black Hand members who want to kill the Antediluvians is a much more interesting conflict than the conflict against the Soul Eaters. I also state that I'm glad that Jalan lost this fight in V5 because screw Jalan. I've always liked the True Hand, as silly as they are, versus the Sabbat. So, I'm very glad about all the True Hand concepts here.

        Beckett asks who murdered the regent and Vasantasena says to check out the Book of Ruth.

        I completely forgot what this meant if it was ever revealed in the book.

        This is when we meet another character I very much like with Maria Sandoza, a High Inquisitor of the Sabbat and a newly introduced second child of Moncada. She was sixteen years old when she was Embraced and the text hints at the uncomfortable subtext that has always been there that Moncada Embraced both Lucita as well as Maria as his sexual partners rather than for any other motivation. She is the High Inquisitor of the Sabbat so is every bit the capable individual that Lucita is, however.

        Their meeting results in the very unexpected proclamation of Lucita as Regent of the Sabbat, much to her surprise.

        Anatole of all people becomes surprisingly coherent when speaking about Shaitan and states for him to be a possible murderer of Melinda Gailbraith. The 4th Generation crazy Methuselah and founder of the Baali that was introduced in Chaos Factor. Again, I fully expect V20 to eventually do a remake of Samael Haight that somehow redeems his legacy.

        We also get some newspaper clippings about the brutal and often absurdist nature of the Sabbat civil war with gunmen in luchador costumes attacking the Cartels. I'm trying to remember the name of the Nosferatu Luchador in V20 but I always liked that guy and wonder if this is a reference to him or just a coincidence.

        We also get some chat text about the Civil War, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's ANOTHER Inquisition at work.

        Adventure Hooks

        It's kind of funny that we get more Gehenna Crusade information here than in V5 and arguably in the Camarilla book. It explains that the Gehenna Crusade is off and running with it being what has actually broken the Sabbat in half. The world NOT ending but turning into a slog implies that the Crusade has actually been going on since not long after 9/11 and is a "long war."

        We also get such detail that "More Sabbat have defected to the Anarchs in the past five years than in the past four centuries.". That's important I think and may imply that the Loyalist faction of the Sabbat has ceased to exist. It also may explain why the Anarchs have become so Sabbat-like.

        It then proceeds to state the Sabbat used Operation: Iraqi Freedom to smuggle themselves into the Middle East and then immediately started Embracing Baath Loyalists and Sunni Insurgents. It's all but stated a decent number of ISIS soldiers/war criminals are Saabat without venturing into the "Unfortunate Implications" territory of claiming the Sabbat is behind them. It also states the Camarilla goining after them is "years away."

        The book proceeds to explain in a bit more detail that Jalan (who is confirmed as Elimelech) is at war with the Black Hand, as stated, and I'm very glad the True Hand wins this conflict because I think it'd be easy to see Jalan as the "good guy" when it is really just evil vs. evil. We also have Maria Sandoza as fully intent on being a Demon and Baali Hunter as the Sabbat's new direction.

        Lucita as the Regent of the Sabbat is a very interesting plot but not one I'm entirely behind. As much as I like Lucita, I felt the worst plotline for her was when the Lasombra Trilogy made her a member of the Sabbat. Basically, they sucked everything interesting out of her to make her a more stereotypical Lasombra. This does better by implying she'd attempt to reform the Sabbat but I just don't think it would be a good foot as the Rebel Becoming the Man doesn't quite fit her character arc. We also know that it doesn't work out (understatement) either with Polonia becoming Regent or the Old Sabbat being all but destroyed.

        She might be a factor in the defection to the Camarilla but I don't see that coming either.

        Other candidates for Regent of the Sabbat include Vykos (either Vykos themselves or the Dracon impersonating Vykos) and Polonia as mentioned. The book weirdly talks about Polonia claiming credit for 9/11, which is a really weird story that was repeated in V5 even after New York By Night was very clear it had no supernatural involvement. Here, Polonia is explictly lying but it's still weird to come up. We also get some more Sabbat Regent candidates that are interesting but mostly there's hints the Drowned Legacies are about to retake South America from the Sabbat.

        We also have an interesting reversal of Nights of Prophecy where it's implied the Tremere antitribu are killed by Ur-Shulgi instead of by Tremere/Goratrix. It implies that the Salubri Antitribu never rise to power because the destruction of House Goratrix only happened a couple of years ago.

        Thoughts

        This is probably the best chapter in the entire book with the possible exception of Milwaukee by Night's section and for completely different reasons. The Milwaukee chapter is one that brings up a relatively obscure supplement and remakes it into something really fascinating while capturing it's mid-sized city environment. It also gives a lot of good plot hooks while not losing the original feel.

        This chapter, by contrast, is all about diving deep into the big and epic storylines of the past while giving the entirety of a sect an overhaul. The Sabbat Civil War is something that affects probably a third of all vampires in the setting and throws in a huge number of really well-loved NPCs as well. It follows up on a lot of plotlines that were abandoned by Revised and puts their own spin on them.

        It's part of the reason that V5 was controversial in some quarters because it skipped over this new Sabbat info when it's some of the best writing for the sect since Montreal by Night.
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-21-2019, 04:38 PM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • BTW, why are they called the Drowned Legacies?

          My theory is that it's because they'd be vampire Clans that weren't at Enoch during the Flood.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            Anatole of all people becomes surprisingly coherent when speaking about Shaitan and states for him to be a possible murderer of Melinda Gailbraith. The 4th Generation crazy Methuselah and founder of the Baali that was introduced in Chaos Factor.
            If memory tricks me not, Shaitan manipulated her memories into believing she was Shaitan's lover, so he would be the last person on earth to want Galbraith destroyed. Also, the simple fact Anatole is being coherent should be susícious, i would say.

            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            We also get some newspaper clippings about the brutal and often absurdist nature of the Sabbat civil war with gunmen in luchador costumes attacking the Cartels. I'm trying to remember the name of the Nosferatu Luchador in V20 but I always liked that guy and wonder if this is a reference to him or just a coincidence.
            EL DIABLO VERDE!!!! Sideways joke reference, as that guy as described definitely went rogue and against the Sabbat.


            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            It then proceeds to state the Sabbat used Operation: Iraqi Freedom to smuggle themselves into the Middle East and then immediately started Embracing Baath Loyalists and Sunni Insurgents. It's all but stated a decent number of ISIS soldiers/war criminals are Saabat without venturing into the "Unfortunate Implications" territory of claiming the Sabbat is behind them. It also states the Camarilla goining after them is "years away."
            Not behind them, they were already there before the Sabbat - they are simply piggybacking on the guy's ruthlessness for their own uses and agenda cover-up.

            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            The book proceeds to explain in a bit more detail that Jalan (who is confirmed as Elimelech)
            This i'm very much not happy with - but then i have always ignored the whole "Jalan-Aajav & Karsh are masks of an elusive ancient" plotline.
            Now they just gave the mistery Marty Stu ancient a familiar name - that i'm still going to COMPLETELY ignore anyway.
            (Sabbat Hand x True Hand Civil War i'm completely ok with)

            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            but mostly there's hints the Drowned Legacies are about to retake South America from the Sabbat.
            "Mictlantecuhtli arises, hail the devourer of Nicktuku!!! His Harbingers have the face of skulls and are dressed in finery dead things and ghosts!!!"

            (random trivia - in my own games "the Wanderer" and "Mictlantecuhtli" are completely different kindred, because i always felt the deity's description fits far more with a Samedi - or Harbingers of Skulls - and so i went with it)
            Last edited by Baaldam; 03-29-2022, 11:30 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
              If memory tricks me not, Shaitan manipulated her memories into believing she was Shaitan's lover, so he would be the last person on earth to want Galbraith destroyed. Also, the simple fact Anatole is being coherent should be susícious, i would say.
              Mind you, Melinda royally fucked up raising Shaitan from his ancient slumber and in true Darth Vader fashion it would not be out of character for the most overtly EVILLLLLL vampire in the entire gameline to punish her with the Final Death as a result--especially as the canonical ending of Chaos Factor is that Shaitan ends up buried beneath several thousand tons of rubble that will make their return even harder.

              I feel like also mentioning that in my games that Shaitan met the Final Death at the hands of the Second Inquisition as a glorious Angelic Being smote them during the battle between the Inquisitors, Mexican Army, and the Sabbat, Baali, Lupines in something that would have resulted in the Masquerade failing if most of them survived. Said Angelic being was probably Demon: The Fallen's Lucifer for extra irony points and the death of Shaitan just delayed Belial's rise for a few more centuries.

              None of which is canon or even relevant to MY games but I rather enjoyed.

              EL DIABLO VERDE!!!! Sideways joke reference, as that guy as described definitely went rogue and against the Sabbat.
              I love that guy. I have no idea how I'd ever put him in my games but he is up there with Doctor Mortius, Bela, and Dorian Adams (Washington DC By Night) for favorite characters.

              Not behind them, they were already there before the Sabbat - they are simply piggybacking on the guy's ruthlessness for their own uses and agenda cover-up.
              Ah.

              This i'm very much not happy with - but then i have always ignored the whole "Jalan-Aajav & Karsh are masks of an elusive ancient" plotline. Now they just gave the mistery Marty Stu ancient a familiar name - that i'm still going to COMPLETELY ignore anyway. (Sabbat Hand x True Hand Civil War i'm completely ok with)
              I admit, I actually just had it that Jalan Aajav and Karsh are identical twin brothers Embraced by the same sire. It would be silly except for the fact it's objectively less silly than just about every other option. They have a "Sabertooh" and "Wolverine" style relationship except they're both Sabertooth if that makes sense.

              "Mictlantecuhtli arises, hail the devourer of Nicktuku!!! His Harbingers have the face of skulls and dressed in finery dead things and ghosts!!!"

              (random trivia - in my own games "the Wanderer" and "Mictlantecuhtli" are completely different kindred, because i always felt the deity's description fits far more with a Samedi - or Harbingers of Skulls - and so i went with it)
              It's kind of funny how much of a problem the statement that all Nosferatu are descended from the single un-bound Nicktuku has caused in canon. In my games, I actually made it so Baba Yaga is the ancestor of all Nosferatu in the world because she's as good a candidate as any.

              However, some people claim she's one because--well, I guess they want someone else to be the one free Nosferatu?

              Another easy answer would be the Nosferatu was a diablerist themselves and a powerful member of the Sabbat.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • The Drowned Legacies have their name partly explained in their chapter, and I wouldn't try pinning BJD to a specific year. It's deliberately nebulous and not all the events that take place in its chapters take place in a linear order. The Fall of the House of Tremere is a good example of a chapter in which some of the events take place after subsequent chapters.


                Matthew Dawkins
                In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


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                • Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
                  The Drowned Legacies have their name partly explained in their chapter, and I wouldn't try pinning BJD to a specific year. It's deliberately nebulous and not all the events that take place in its chapters take place in a linear order. The Fall of the House of Tremere is a good example of a chapter in which some of the events take place after subsequent chapters.
                  Thanks for the clarification!


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Mind you, Melinda royally fucked up raising Shaitan from his ancient slumber and in true Darth Vader fashion it would not be out of character for the most overtly EVILLLLLL vampire in the entire gameline to punish her with the Final Death as a result--especially as the canonical ending of Chaos Factor is that Shaitan ends up buried beneath several thousand tons of rubble that will make their return even harder.
                    It has been so long since i last read Chaos Factor i don't even remember how involved Galbraith actually was - and consequently to blame or not - for the whole "Samuel Haight paradox bomb" debacle.

                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    I feel like also mentioning that in my games that Shaitan met the Final Death at the hands of the Second Inquisition as a glorious Angelic Being smote them during the battle between the Inquisitors, Mexican Army, and the Sabbat, Baali, Lupines in something that would have resulted in the Masquerade failing if most of them survived. Said Angelic being was probably Demon: The Fallen's Lucifer for extra irony points and the death of Shaitan just delayed Belial's rise for a few more centuries.

                    None of which is canon or even relevant to MY games but I rather enjoyed.
                    Canon is so overrated, rejoice in your own chronicle crazy....

                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    I love that guy. I have no idea how I'd ever put him in my games but he is up there with Doctor Mortius, Bela, and Dorian Adams (Washington DC By Night) for favorite characters.
                    Dorian Adams, that's the one i don't like so much, because someone wasted time trying to come up with supposedly sensible explanations for his behaviour (that were complete horsecrap). The demented Indiana Jones movie nazi Tremere - studying the Dead Sea Scrolls, of all things - entertained me considerably more.

                    And yeah, the Diablo Verde is awesome - as an aside, considering he started as a template in Clanbook: Nosferatu, i would say it's pretty possible that other luchadores turned shovelheads might be found in numbers through Mexico. Time for the original to go back home, to restore honor to the mascara among the dead!

                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    I admit, I actually just had it that Jalan Aajav and Karsh are identical twin brothers Embraced by the same sire. It would be silly except for the fact it's objectively less silly than just about every other option. They have a "Sabertooh" and "Wolverine" style relationship except they're both Sabertooth if that makes sense.
                    Considering one was a mongol horseman in the armies of Gengis Khan and the other a janissary general in the 16th century, that must have been one hell of a mother.

                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    It's kind of funny how much of a problem the statement that all Nosferatu are descended from the single un-bound Nicktuku has caused in canon. In my games, I actually made it so Baba Yaga is the ancestor of all Nosferatu in the world because she's as good a candidate as any.

                    However, some people claim she's one because--well, I guess they want someone else to be the one free Nosferatu?

                    Another easy answer would be the Nosferatu was a diablerist themselves and a powerful member of the Sabbat.
                    Yeah, true, i'm quite aware the simple, sensible, canon-friendly solution would be for Mictlan to have diablerized some Nosferatu who became 4th gen through diablerie himself.

                    To hell with that, bragging rights come first, chomped a Niktuku and ya, uh, uh?!

                    ​(i rest my case)
                    Last edited by Baaldam; 07-21-2019, 05:00 PM.

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                    • Chapter Nine: The Spark of Civil War notes

                      1. Yay! Lucita! I've mentioned my fandom of the character so any inclusion of her is an automatic +1 to any writing's score. I was not a fan of her joining the Sabbat in the Lasombra Trilogy as I mentioned and her being Regent is something I wouldn't like either but it makes more sense if she's trying to sink Moncada's vision. Then again, I tend to enjoy making the Sabbat overtly evil and enslaved to the Beast as well as each other. I've even called them "Vampire ISIS" (which is now a literal thing that exists in the setting) so it's not a place I really would like my favorite character to be nevertheless.

                      2. Vasantasena is a character that I've come to like because of this book and what happened to her in V5. Basically, her attempt to reform the Sabbat with Lucita as Regent is a miserable failure because she takes up all of her Malkavian Antitribu followers and leaves to join either the Camarilla or Anarchs. Really, I think the writing was on the wall there as I can't help but think the massacre of the Path of Harmony should have told her.

                      Anyone else remember those guys? I always felt like slaughtering the one group of Sabbat who weren't complete dickheads should have been a bigger deal.
                      3. The Sabbat have always been at a low-level civil war with its members because of the fundamental contrast between the fact it's a sect espousing FREEDOM while they're all Blood Bound soldiers in a rigidly controlled theocracy/army. So, I have no problem with another Civil War breaking out over the flimisiest of pretenses. I also note that Pre-9/11 the Sabbat as a bunch of religious fanatic terrorists were a viable player option--after it? Well, the comparison to Al-Qaeda and ISIS is a lot more biting.

                      I feel the same way about the Garou. Which is maybe not a great thing to say in W:TA/V:TM mixed company.
                      4. Let's be honest: the Baali and demons exist for the same purpose as the Nephandi in Mage: The Ascension. They're there to give the player characters something even more evil than themselves to fight. It's why they show up so often in my games when I *KNOW* I should make the player characters the worst thing in the area but I can't help making them superheroes with fangs. Still, I like how they incorporate Chaos Factor as a thing but without dwelling too much into it.

                      5. Maria Sandoza is already a favorite character of mine even though you'd think, "the heretofore unknown little sister of a pre-existing beloved character" would make her the Dawn to Lucita's Buffy and strongly disliked. However, I really like the idea of giving the Inquisition a signature badass demon huntress actually opposed to the Baali and infernal. I hope we see more of her even if I suspect she'll have to leave the Sabbat once the Old Bloods start taking it over.

                      6. I've mentioned I actually like the Tal'Mah'Ra but I like the idea of it more than the actual execution of it. Generally, I like the idea of it being a larger Servitors of Irad versus the Illuminati within the Illuminati--which is fitting because the good people at Onyx Path stated outright the Servitors of Irad *ARE* the True Black Hand's Camarilla members or at least part of them.

                      Giving them some actual pushback by Jalan here is good and helps mitigate some of their perceived "Creator's Pet" status (which is objectively different from a Mary Sue). I'm glad they won against Jalan because it actually feels like an earned victory rather than one handed to them.

                      7. I was going to comment on the timeline here of BJD but Matthew Dawkins has corrected me that things aren't directly coherent nor is it proper to nail it down to one specific year.

                      8. I do think that this book implies the Salubri Antitribu never became a thing in this setting, just because I don't think they're ever mentioned and we know House Goratrix is rebuilt in V5. I don't think that's a bad thing and I wouldn't be surprised if SOME Salubri joined the Black Hand but I don't think they ever became a thing. I also think even the Warriors wouldn't find the Sabbat appropriate given they're a bunch of homocidal psychopaths at best.

                      Not even to kill the Tremere.

                      9. We'll probably never find out who actually killed Melinda Gailbraith but I'm inclined to think that Shaitan withdrew its support of her and she was finished off by the Sabbat Inquisition. Maybe Jalan could have helped Maria with it but it gives the Little Sister some street cred to kill the biggest Infernalist in the Sabbat. Alternatively, capital H hunters but we'll see if they continue to exist (or were a thing that DID exist and no longer do or do in small amounts).

                      I think OOP has stated they aren't opposed to doing H:TR the way they are K:TE but it's just a low priority unless fans make their demand known. So I'm inclined to think H:TR is still canon and maybe played a part in the Apocalypse being postponed ala Call of Cthulhu: The Masks of Nyarlathotep or the Shadows of Yog-Sothoth.
                      Alternatively, she was killed by El Diablo Verde after she botched her Dominate roll and thus knocked herself senseless!
                      Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-21-2019, 05:09 PM.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                        It has been so long since i last read Chaos Factor i don't even remember how involved Galbraith actually was - and consequently to blame or not - for the whole "Samuel Haight paradox bomb" debacle.
                        Sensible responses are not for people with goat horns who wish to bring about the end of the world.

                        Canon is so overrated, rejoice in your own crazy....
                        The US bombed Alamut at Marcus Vitel's behest!

                        Dorian Adams, that's the one i don't like so much, because someone wasted time trying to come up with supposedly sensible explanations for his behaviour (that were complete horsecrap).
                        The demented Indiana Jones movie nazi Tremere - studying the Dead Sea Scrolls, of all things - entertained me considerably more.
                        I feel like there's not a terrible idea there. "I found out that the Prince is actually a 2000 year old Sabbat. So I'm going to pretend to have gone mad and retreated into my own little world so he won't kill me."

                        But yes, he's like the TH in that there's a good concept but one that needs to be played delicately.

                        Considering one was a mongol horseman in the armies of Gengis Khan and the other a janissary general in the 16th century, that must have been one hell of a mother.
                        They were vampires in both of them too!

                        Yeah, true, i'm quite aware the simple, sensible, canon-friendly solution would be for Mictlan to have diablerized some Nosferatu who became 4th gen through diablerie himself.

                        To hell with that, bragging rights come first, chomped a Niktuku and ya, uh, uh?!

                        ​(i rest my case)
                        I actually think it's much more interesting if it was a Nicktuku to be honest.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • This is one of my favourite chapters in the book. However, I disagree with @CTPhillips on a few issues.

                          It is interesting that Sikorsky impersonated the regent for years and apparently few of the Sabbat’s best and brightest noticed and cared enough to do anything about the fact.

                          Wars – the Gehenna War included – are less events than processes. Much like Gehenna itself. It would take time for a large portion of the Sabbat to leave their cities, travel to the Middle East (a large region) and start trying to eat every vampire they found. This attrition process would shift things for all the power players, including those trying to be regent. That is to say, some who might have otherwise have strong support would have to double check to make certain most of their boosters were not off wandering in circles in the Badia. Others would have a stronger chance, just because so many of a rivals supporters are off, wandering in circles in the Badia. And that is before the Sabbat starts getting hammer by its own Civil War, the Drowned Legacies, and the Second Inquisition. Again, I suspect the Sabbat broke into multiple Sabbats, each saying it is the real Sabbat.

                          I am alright with Lucita becoming the regent of a Sabbat, if she and the part of the Sabbat she runs are more the Sabbat desired by herself, Vasantasena and a few others. Which is to say dangerous, but not a bunch of Jackass vampires hopelessly compromised by infernalism and Antedeluvians manipulations.

                          Anatole calls out Beckett for helping to trigger the latest Sabbat Civil War, but I’m not certain why Beckett should care.

                          The events of BJD are not chronological across the book or even within a chapter. Chapters are grouped more by theme than by time or location. Between Beckett’s adventures in Chicago and meeting with Lucita to get his jet back, a lot of things happened. Pinning down the exact timeline is probably possible, but would be difficult.

                          Vasantasena is an interesting character. She first appeared in Children of the Inquisition, one of the first supplements ever released – I think it predated 2nd edition. In any case, how she serves as a thorn in the side of the Sabbat elites makes her somewhat fascinating. The narrative puts her to good use in BJD, even if her appearance – quoted by @CTPhillips above – strikes me as exploitive. Even so, her scene with Beckett and Lucita is one of the best in the book and speaks to her insight and power. Also, I think Vasantasena’s objection to Vaulderie is because it is simply another form of blood bond and slavery, rather than opposition to Kupala. She never mentions the demon.

                          I do not dislike the revised True Black Hand. That Vicissitude was supposed to be alien parasite that the True Hand was dedicated to exterminating was at best silly. But that the Sabbat’s supposed purpose of freedom and battling the Antediluvians had *always* been compromised by a secret cabal is a great narrative twist. That the secret cabal would be locked into a fight with other Sabbat forces also makes sense.

                          The reference to the Book of Ruth is a reference to Elimelech, a tragic and mysterious Sabbat character. If Elimelech did will the real regent, then the question is what did he do for almost 20 years as Sikorsky ran around pretending to be the regent?

                          Who did what to whom keeps shifting. This chapter suggests Ur-Shulgi was involved in the destruction of the Tremere anti-tribue, but who is responsible changes later in BJD.

                          Maria Sandoza is an interesting character, and the scene with her and Lucita is touching, considering both are horrible monster people.

                          Edit: One the one hand I worry that the character of El Diablo Verde is something of a racist and possibly classist caricature. On the other hand, I can never read the name without my brain saying it in a “Let’s get ready to ruuuuuuuuumble!” kind of way. “Eel Diaablooo Veeeeerdeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

                          The Salubri anti-tribue are mentioned supporting one of the contenders for regent, so they at least exist in the V20 – V5 timeline of BJD.

                          Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 07-21-2019, 05:55 PM. Reason: El Diablo Verde made me do it.

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                          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            Beckett asks who murdered the regent and Vasantasena says to check out the Book of Ruth.

                            I completely forgot what this meant if it was ever revealed in the book.
                            In this scene, Vasantasena is hinting that she thinks the killer was Elimelech.


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                            • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                              This is one of my favorite chapters in the book. However, I disagree with @CTPhillips on a few issues.
                              And that's why I love your presence in this thread.

                              It is interesting that Sikorsky impersonated the regent for years and apparently few of the Sabbat’s best and brightest noticed and cared enough to do anything about the fact.
                              Well Vasantasena and Jalan are stated in the chapter to have figured out fairly early and then proceeded to force Sikorsky to continue the ruse, essentially making the Sabbat Regent their puppet. Some noticed but the idea there's a Tzimisce body double in her place means that they could get away with it.

                              Wars – the Gehenna War included – are less events than processes. Much like Gehenna itself. It would take time for a large portion of the Sabbat to leave their cities, travel to the Middle East (a large region) and start trying to eat every vampire they found. This attrition process would shift things for all the power players, including those trying to be regent. That is to say, some who might have otherwise have strong support would have to double check to make certain most of their boosters were not off wandering in circles in the Badia. Others would have a stronger chance, just because so many of a rivals supporters are off, wandering in circles in the Badia. And that is before the Sabbat starts getting hammer by its own Civil War, the Drowned Legacies, and the Second Inquisition. Again, I suspect the Sabbat broke into multiple Sabbats, each saying it is the real Sabbat.
                              Sensible. My inclination is that the Gehenna War mostly took a large chunk of the Sabbat's strategic reserve and War Packs as well as Nomadic ones rather than "all the Sabbat" and the ones who stayed behind were hammered horribly. Even so, I believe we're going to dial back on the Sabbat getting eaten by the Old Ones. Instead, there will probably be a Guide to the Sabbat with the Old Ones taking the role of Threat Null from the Technocracy.

                              Basically, we'll have the Classic Sabbat at about 1/10th its original size and the Monster Horrifying Sabbat that they're fighting and nebulous ancient conspiracies running from it.

                              I am alright with Lucita becoming the regent of a Sabbat, if she and the part of the Sabbat she runs are more the Sabbat desired by herself, Vasantasena and a few others. Which is to say dangerous, but not a bunch of Jackass vampires hopelessly compromised by infernalism and Antedeluvians manipulations.
                              It's the problem when you try to make a faction deeper than just generic goons, that you run the risk of losing the premise of what makes them horrifying. It happened in Bioware's TOR with the Sith where some fans forgot they were a bunch of slaving fascists.

                              Anatole calls out Beckett for helping to trigger the latest Sabbat Civil War, but I’m not certain why Beckett should care.
                              I think Anatole is chiding Beckett throughout the chapter for missing big clues and failing to realize just how huge the events around him are happening. Beckett has actually done nothing other than be present.

                              The events of BJD are not chronological across the book or even within a chapter. Chapters are grouped more by theme than by time or location. Between Beckett’s adventures in Chicago and meeting with Lucita to get his jet back, a lot of things happened. Pinning down the exact timeline is probably possible, but would be difficult.
                              Yeah, I get that now.

                              Vasantasena is an interesting character. She first appeared in Children of the Inquisition, one of the first supplements ever released – I think it predated 2nd edition. In any case, how she serves as a thorn in the side of the Sabbat elites makes her somewhat fascinating. The narrative puts her to good use in BJD, even if her appearance – quoted by @CTPhillips above – strikes me as exploitive. Even so, her scene with Beckett and Lucita is one of the best in the book and speaks to her insight and power. Also, I think Vasantasena’s objection to Vaulderie is because it is simply another form of blood bond and slavery, rather than opposition to Kupala. She never mentions the demon.
                              I think it's a characteristic of Elder vampires that they often suffer less body shame than regular mortals and certainly she comes from a society that doesn't view it with disgust. Nudity in a gamebook doesn't have to be anything other than art--especially as it's just a description.

                              Fair point on the Vaulderie which is just "Blood Bond Lite" anyway.

                              I do not dislike the revised True Black Hand. That Vicissitude was supposed to be alien parasite that the True Hand was dedicated to exterminating was at best silly. But that the Sabbat’s supposed purpose of freedom and battling the Antediluvians had *always* been compromised by a secret cabal is a great narrative twist. That the secret cabal would be locked into a fight with other Sabbat forces also makes sense.
                              Having them hunt the Tzimisce Antediluvian as corrupted by Kupala and spread among Vicissitude users is also only slightly less silly. I do agree with the rest of your statement too.

                              The reference to the Book of Ruth is a reference to Elimelech, a tragic and mysterious Sabbat character. If Elimelech did will the real regent, then the question is what did he do for almost 20 years as Sikorsky ran around pretending to be the regent?
                              Got it. The answer seems to be, "be Jalan Aajav"

                              Who did what to whom keeps shifting. This chapter suggests Ur-Shulgi was involved in the destruction of the Tremere anti-tribue, but who is responsible changes later in BJD.
                              I'm inclined to stick with it being Tremere/Goratrix but in V5, I'm inclined to say Tremere killed only SOME of the Tremere Antribu (maybe as few as half, more likely 2/3rds) and forced the remainder to swear allegiance to him.

                              Maria Sandoza is an interesting character, and the scene with her and Lucita is touching, considering both are horrible monster people.
                              Agreed.
                              Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-21-2019, 05:42 PM.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • Something that's low-key bugged me throughout reading the thread, that I just haven't had the energy to bring up, is my disagreement about canon, vis a vis BJD to V5.

                                I do not think they exist in the same continuity, and trying to read into one for the sake of the other is, at least for me, misguided.

                                The two works - BJD and V5 - were developed concurrently, the former overlapping the other. As such, while they share some common elements - like the Gehenna Crusade - they don't necessarily explore them in the same way. Moreover, they make vastly different assumptions about what events in older books "happened" and which didn't. BJD deviates from both Revised and the Clan Novels by having Clan Ravnos be largely intact, and the Week of Nightmares not happening. Whereas V5 seems to go along with the Revised era canon that says Clan Ravnos was absolutely decimated. This is just one example.

                                BJD also is the nexus for a multitude of possible "futures", that Storytellers can implement in their games. Including giving different explanations for why things happened (Did Carna really break her blood bond, or only think she did? Who really assassinated the Sabbat Regent and/or the Regent's imposter? Etc, etc.). Which means that no single "future fate" is more legitimate than another, as far as BJD is concerned. V5, meanwhile, chooses which ones it wants to be true, even if BJD didn't present it as an option (I don't remember "Jan Pieterzoon dies, his ambitions coming to nothing" as an option in the chapter talking about him). (And, of course, I and many others tend to dislike V5 because it seemed to choose all the least interesting options, but that's besides the point).

                                Now I understand why CTPhipps wants to directly connect BJD to V5. He LIKES V5, and so sees BJD's relationship to V5 exclusively through that lens. There's nothing wrong with wanting to fit things together so it all makes sense.

                                Respectfully, I just don't think it CAN make sense, because BJD and V5 were not designed to exist in the same "timeline". Their mutually exclusive canons reflect this.

                                (If I may illustrate using a different piece of media, I liken it to the Highlander franchise. No matter how many times individual installments of films, TV, animation, etc. want to SAY they are sequels and part of the larger canon, the devil is in the details. Each installment makes wildly different assumptions about how immortals work, what their purpose is, and various thematic differences. That Highlander II made them all aliens from the planet Zeist is just the most dramatic example of how installments ignore or change aspects of Highlander lore to suit whatever they want to do at the time. Just look at Highlander: The Source for the number of retcons it has. It's basically impossible to see that franchise as a cohesive continuity, and one must instead see it as a series of parallel universes.

                                This is how I feel about BJD and V5. They aren't part of the same timeline, and the one doesn't really "prove" the other.)


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