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Characteristics of spirits, demons, Abyssal Shadows and other creatures of Umbra.

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  • Characteristics of spirits, demons, Abyssal Shadows and other creatures of Umbra.

    Explain me the "relationship" between spirits and vampires.

    In the "V20" on p.387 we can find the description of "Fallen" and their characteristics emulated through vampire forces.
    They have "Skills" and "Attributes".
    They can increase knowledge, acquire new powers, their essence is immortal. They have bodies or very strong vessels.

    V20 Tome of Secrets p.111

    Here we are shown the description of the call of demons and their characteristics and strengths (again, emulated from the point of view of tvampire's powers).

    Mad Demon "Shp’murrl Tsong"
    He has physical characteristics, he has skills.
    He has a body, even the smaller demons have a body incarnation.

    Even abyssal entities are described in this way.

    DAV20 p.300

    In past editions there were books describing elementals.
    There they had "essence", but in the description of the vampire path (as in DAV20) they had physical Traits.

    DAV20 p.400
    And here is the problem.

    Here we only have 4 traits.
    -Rage for Attack
    -Will for protection
    -Gnosis for social manipulation
    -Essens is life and energy

    (More like a werewolf system)

    This entity does not possess "skills" of "Attributes" like others, this spirits is not entirely material (but can be embodied).

    But explain me how to fight the demons who have "26 blocks of life", 6 dice to protect against damage and 15 dice to attack?
    Even if we need to inflict a total of 26 points of any damage, he has many opportunities to heal in battle (because this demon feeds on suffering).

    An even more interesting option, the Demon can summon a hellhound.
    But this hound has a “body” (spiritual?) And characteristics like an ordinary dog.
    At the same time, the rage of their Master allows them to raise the "strength" and "stamina" to the level of this rage.

    These spirits, if I’m not mistaken, have no limit on the amount of essence, and therefore on the amount of health.
    Does this mean that they can accumulate 500 units of essence?

    But what about the spirit itself?
    Why can't he use his Rage or other traits?
    Why does he get the "body" of the dog, and the Demon who called him has no such thing?
    At the same time, unlike demons, these dogs can not have more health than ordinary dogs. Why?





    Questions to the GMs.
    What will happen if a vampire decides to "drink" from such spirit?
    Will he get vitae? Or will he not be able to absorb his essence?
    Will he be able to absorb this force using the power of Valerena or some kind of bloody magic, like the infernal "Path of Phobos"?
    How does they interact with other spirits, such as the demons called by Rego Calatio?
    If the spirit is immaterial, how can it attack and receive blows in return?
    Is it possible to destroy the spirit at once, if you use the power of Spiritus?

  • Alphari
    replied
    Sorry, I'm not familiar with this power.
    This is the power of Blood Sorcery (Perhaps dark thaumaturgy), written in "DAV20"
    It seems that in the old editions there was a similar force for invoking spirits of nature (or something other).
    At least this power was mentioned in DVA20.
    Last edited by Alphari; 07-14-2019, 08:31 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darkfoxdev
    replied
    The absolute most straightforward way to build a spirit using just v20 can be found in rites of the blood, in a sidebar next to path of spirit manipulation near the end:

    Type
    Willpower (dicepool = wp x2)
    One discipline power per permanent wp (thaumaturgy paths are great for this)
    one ability per permantent wp (add +2 to dice pool)
    Last edited by Darkfoxdev; 07-14-2019, 01:55 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mistocles
    replied
    I've run into similar problems and usually we do what Saga said - going to the other system and using those rules. It's nice that Vampire let's you incorporate things from Wraith and Werewolf etc without having to buy those books but if you have access to them and they are going to feature in the game in a significant way, use those.

    I was using Thaum's Elemental Mastery 5: Summon Elemental in V20 to summon an elemental spirit. The rules as written talk about Sylphs and Undines and such (which appear no where else that I could find in the apocrypha). Since the game involved werewolves and we have that rule set, we went to W20 and just substituted those Elementals since they kept the idea consistent and there were more resources in W20 for spirits.

    Can you elaborate more on the scenario you're encountering? Are you a player whose character is up against demons and or spirits? Are you a story-teller trying to parse out rules prior to an engagement?

    I think also of importance is on what plane of existence are you encountering these spirits? For the most part they stay in the umbra. If you're a vampire in the umbra... there's not much to say other than 7/5/3, 13/9/5.

    I have found the spirit stat block (Rage, Gnosis, etc.) is mostly for spirits in their native plane. It might be useful to think of the normal trait set (attributes and abilities) for corporeal forms.

    What will happen if a vampire decides to "drink" from such spirit? Will he get vitae? Or will he not be able to absorb his essence?

    There are powers that let's kindred drink from ghosts and spirits get blood or willpower but without those powers I would say nothing. It might depend on some more context like if the spirit has come through the gauntlet and has a form like a Stag.

    Will he be able to absorb this force using the power of Valerena or some kind of bloody magic, like the infernal "Path of Phobos"?

    Valeren might have something in the elder levels but for the most part, the "dead" part of being vampires excludes them form dealing with spirits all that much except for Spiritus which I'll answer below. Demon came late in the publishing cycle so it was only reincorporated into the 20th anniv editions with the littlest effort possible. Thaum 5 has Ward v Spirit and Ward v Demon as rituals and you can put those on swords and do an extra three lethal to those enemies if you want.

    How does they interact with other spirits, such as the demons called by Rego Calatio?

    Sorry, I'm not familiar with this power.

    If the spirit is immaterial, how can it attack and receive blows in return?

    Need more context here. Normally spirits are immaterial and in the Umbra where they run the gamut from hardly worth binding to a fetish to something like the triatic wyrm - a being of incomprehensible power. Werewolves in the umbra can fight them and their essence is their health. If a spirit comes into the physical world it can be harmed and then like with Spiritus 2, it get's sent back to the umbra when it's body dies. If "killed" in the umbra I believe it goes back to the deep umbra where it has to regenerate but I'm fuzzier on those rules.

    Is it possible to destroy the spirit at once, if you use the power of Spiritus?

    This would be you best bet as it is one of the few powers that specifically deals with spirits, but again it depends on where you're fighting and a lot on the ST discretion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saga
    replied
    Originally posted by Alphari View Post
    Explain me the "relationship" between spirits and vampires.

    In the "V20" on p.387 we can find the description of "Fallen" and their characteristics emulated through vampire forces.
    They have "Skills" and "Attributes".
    They can increase knowledge, acquire new powers, their essence is immortal. They have bodies or very strong vessels.

    V20 Tome of Secrets p.111

    Here we are shown the description of the call of demons and their characteristics and strengths (again, emulated from the point of view of tvampire's powers).

    Mad Demon "Shp’murrl Tsong"
    He has physical characteristics, he has skills.
    He has a body, even the smaller demons have a body incarnation.

    Even abyssal entities are described in this way.

    DAV20 p.300

    In past editions there were books describing elementals.
    There they had "essence", but in the description of the vampire path (as in DAV20) they had physical Traits.

    DAV20 p.400
    And here is the problem.

    Here we only have 4 traits.
    -Rage for Attack
    -Will for protection
    -Gnosis for social manipulation
    -Essens is life and energy

    (More like a werewolf system)

    This entity does not possess "skills" of "Attributes" like others, this spirits is not entirely material (but can be embodied).

    But explain me how to fight the demons who have "26 blocks of life", 6 dice to protect against damage and 15 dice to attack?
    Even if we need to inflict a total of 26 points of any damage, he has many opportunities to heal in battle (because this demon feeds on suffering).

    An even more interesting option, the Demon can summon a hellhound.
    But this hound has a “body” (spiritual?) And characteristics like an ordinary dog.
    At the same time, the rage of their Master allows them to raise the "strength" and "stamina" to the level of this rage.

    These spirits, if I’m not mistaken, have no limit on the amount of essence, and therefore on the amount of health.
    Does this mean that they can accumulate 500 units of essence?

    But what about the spirit itself?
    Why can't he use his Rage or other traits?
    Why does he get the "body" of the dog, and the Demon who called him has no such thing?
    At the same time, unlike demons, these dogs can not have more health than ordinary dogs. Why?





    Questions to the GMs.
    What will happen if a vampire decides to "drink" from such spirit?
    Will he get vitae? Or will he not be able to absorb his essence?
    Will he be able to absorb this force using the power of Valerena or some kind of bloody magic, like the infernal "Path of Phobos"?
    How does they interact with other spirits, such as the demons called by Rego Calatio?
    If the spirit is immaterial, how can it attack and receive blows in return?
    Is it possible to destroy the spirit at once, if you use the power of Spiritus?

    I always looked for Players Guide to High Clans for abyssal creatures' traits. On demons, Dark Ages Companion turned out pretty useful.

    - Saga

    Leave a comment:


  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Basically vampire has it you can use the Spirit traits if you want or physical traits which ever you find more fun. As a rule spirits will use spirit traits, and random monsters of uncertain providence use the physical traits of corporeal beings, even if not necessarily corporeal.

    And Spirits in general don't have a limit to how much Essence a Spirit can hold, but each spirit does have a limit and raising that limit represents them actually becoming stronger.

    Leave a comment:

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