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What if Caine/the 2nd Gen/the 3rd Gen start embracing again?

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  • What if Caine/the 2nd Gen/the 3rd Gen start embracing again?

    So I liked the story in Talmaherah about the 2nd gen needed Lilith and Caine to make, and even the 3rd gen needed special Qlippothic resources to create. It makes things make sense and doesn't offend my sensibilities that such beings aren't infinitely replenishable.

    But lets say Caine is around and its as simple as him wanting to embrace again? What happens if Caine embraces more 2nd gen?

    Less Dramatic what if one or more 2nd Gen are around and start embracing more 3rd Gen?

    And what if the 3rd gen start embracing more 4th gen? Its been implied they have occasionally done so, I do like Mithras embraced after some thought Ventrue was dead, I am going with this assumption rather then him diablerizing his way to 4th gen. And wasn't there a female Pirate in that v20 book embraced by Lasombra a couple hundred years after he was believed eaten?

    This tosses in some questions, a lot of people here really like that the 3rd gen and stronger are pretty much unbeatable blood gods, but are they really, or is it more a combination of higher discipline access and age?

    What would you say the blood pool of a 3rd or 2nd gen would be? I know its "unimportant" and we don't talk about it officially but would you say its 100? or would you go with it being even higher?

    Do you think 2nd gen are a step above 3rd or do you believe the Eurciyes Fragment that they were equal in potential but Caine limited all newer gens with diminishing potential?


    And the books have been contradictory with their depictions of 3rd gens. Conservative later editions speak that their is no advantage beyond blood pool and later potential when embraced as a 3rd gen, but earlier editions seem to portray 3rd and even 4th and 5th gen as having a speedier mastery of disciplines and potential. In some books they mention higher level disciplines take extended time to master, even saying it takes more then a mortal lifetime to master elder disciplines and Centuries if not millenia to reach Methuselah + disciplines. But at the same time, even in revised, we have accounts of the 2nd City talking about 4th gen mastering level 9 Disciplines.

    And then we have Baba Yaga's childe, the KGB dude forgot his name started with a V, and he in a year got up to elder level disciplines, and Giovanni got a buttload of disciplines in a century or so but its implied a lot of that came from being a talented Sorcerer/Mage, and I absolutely go with the optional rule that Mages and powerful mortals may translate old powers into Disciplines, after all several characters base their storyline on it.

    So with all this what if such beings were embraced and revealed in game? Lots of potential, but not for every game but it could be interesting.

    Or what if the players even played as newly embraced 3rd Gens? Technically I don't see anything wrong with experimenting on a game like that, after all the books even recommend a scenario of playing them in Prehistoric times. I've even thought of what if the players play as Thinblooded Caitiffs with mystical brands, and it turns out the tattoos are seals each time they figure out the puzzle to one they unlock more of their generation, till eventually they realize they were embraced by a Predeluge entity.

    I know the common response has been LOL they are diablerie bait, and perhaps that is even true, or even part of the intent of making these beings as they either survive and become strong or reward one of the modern damned with accursed strength.

    Do 3rd gen and new Wan Kue differ only in the assumption that 3rd gen act like they have a free mastery of 10 in a dharma score except they start with new dead guy discipline levels?

    And what about if say Lilith Creates new Cainite like beings? similar to Cainities to Wan Gui?

    I'll probably later do a separate thread but I've thought about things like the Stone Mask from Jojo and the Behelit from Berserk being the source of new Antediluvian level beings.

    Do you think the world has less magical potential and such new beings can be brought forth, or do you just think its unlikely that new sources of potent mystical beings are just unlikely?

    Thoughts?


    What are the threats of a new 3rd Gen falling to the Beast? That has been one of my issues with the books they never really discuss the concept of 3rd Gens falling to the beast and what that entails. Its implied some may have, hell I can see Ennoia being only Beast. Buts its implied that they have just never fallen to the beast and are on alien perspectives of Roads. This could be its own threads too. I like to think some 3rd Gen fell to the beast but it was so long ago that the beasts developed their own personalities and cultivated intelligence again. Like how do we handle Baba Yaga she is listed as having 0 humanity...


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    Well, Tremere is implied to be an unimaginably powerful Blood God despite not being one of the original Antes.

    Ditto Augustus.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      Well, Tremere is implied to be an unimaginably powerful Blood God despite not being one of the original Antes.

      Ditto Augustus.
      Weeeelll I wouldn't state that. I remember arguing that Tremere Undoubtedly is the most potent Thaumaturgist, and others have aptly pointed out that may not be true because he spent most of the millenium in torpor/fighting Saulot for his body, while folks like Etrius and Goreatrix were actually managing research and politics and improving.

      And Auggy is certainly strong for his age, but I'm not convinced he is unimaginably powerful and a blood god, he seems to be barely a Methuselah by Age but closer to someone two or three times his age due to advancement in his first couple centuries. But he certainly is careful not to say poke the Camarilla or Sabbat because he doesn't have the personal power at the moment to take a concentrated assault. Wasn't he even kidnapped in 5th ed?


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
        Weeeelll I wouldn't state that. I remember arguing that Tremere Undoubtedly is the most potent Thaumaturgist, and others have aptly pointed out that may not be true because he spent most of the millenium in torpor/fighting Saulot for his body, while folks like Etrius and Goreatrix were actually managing research and politics and improving.

        And Auggy is certainly strong for his age, but I'm not convinced he is unimaginably powerful and a blood god, he seems to be barely a Methuselah by Age but closer to someone two or three times his age due to advancement in his first couple centuries. But he certainly is careful not to say poke the Camarilla or Sabbat because he doesn't have the personal power at the moment to take a concentrated assault. Wasn't he even kidnapped in 5th ed?
        1. Well in the Transylvania Chronicles, he disintegrates one of the player characters with a look then resurrects them. There's also a statement that a Malkavian looked at him with Auspex then tore out his eyes. The implication being, correctly, that he is not a normal Kindred but a different kind of being so far above the others of their race that they are not even their own species. We also see this when Tremere casually ends the Second War against the Order of Hermes with a few words.

        2. If he was, it was either at his behest or by a being of similar age and power.

        My general rule is that while age is certainly important, a newly Embraced 3rd generation vampire would be a terrifying eldritch abomination and not a normal vampire.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          Interesting. Vampire adventures teetered on the edge of Railroading for cinematic effect. Like how can he casually resurrect someone? Is that possibly Saulot using Valeren/Obeah, or is it Tremere using a weird Thaumaturgy power, that is weird.

          How did he end the 2nd Massassa war with a Word? What did he do tell his clan to halt or the Hermes to halt?

          Still what is the most impressive thing Auggy has done? Most of his feats seem like impressive politics to me.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
            Interesting. Vampire adventures teetered on the edge of Railroading for cinematic effect. Like how can he casually resurrect someone? Is that possibly Saulot using Valeren/Obeah, or is it Tremere using a weird Thaumaturgy power, that is weird.

            How did he end the 2nd Massassa war with a Word? What did he do tell his clan to halt or the Hermes to halt?
            1. I think the idea was to remove the idea of Antediluvians being bound by the rules and simply say, "If they want to do it, they can because they're not people who can be fought without making the game silly." Some people like this and some people don't. In Mutants and Masterminds, Steve Kenson represented this by giving them X stats so you didn't attempt to do something like stat Galactus.

            2. He appeared on Horizon and basically intimidated them into backing donw.

            Still what is the most impressive thing Auggy has done? Most of his feats seem like impressive politics to me.
            Exterminated the Cappadochians is the most impressive thing.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #7
              Exterminating the Cappadocians was what I considered political. They were scourged of their population by the Feast of Folly already and Cappy let himself be eatin. Unlike the Salubri genocide because Saulot called his oldest children to show their throat.

              I am not a fan of casual resurrection, that is a bit silly to me. And it sounds like good socializing to talk a war down, even if it was intimidation. I doubt though they would have the resources to siege and otherdimensional Fortress, especially since on Horizon they have Allies, like Other Tradition Archmage level allies.


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #8
                Compared to the originals, newly embraced members of the 2nd-4th generations wouldn't be considered "unbeatable blood gods". The reason being is age/experience. They wouldn't have it to make plot device level skills, even with training from the elder members. Look at Gratiano, he's 4th generation but does not have access to Obtenebration skills like Montano because he lacks the age/experience.

                Another thing to look at is the diminishing potential curse that Caine levied when he cursed the founders. Before the curse was brought down, every vampire had equal potential. It just came down to age and experience at that point. To prevent another uprising Caine made it so each subsequent generation was weaker than the previous. Does this curse apply to newly embraced members of the "founder level" generations? Does a new member of the 2nd generation have potential similar to the 3rd? Or are they ignored by this curse due to their closeness to Caine?

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                • #9
                  I ran a game like this as some goofy fun, basically all the PCs were embraced during the first game by a group of sires who gave them a very basic run down of what they were and kindred society before disappearing into the night. The Players just assumed I was running a Brujah or Gangrel story where the fresh childer had to prove themselves by surviving on their own for a while. As such they didn't know what clans they were or what their disciplines/ratings were and had to discover that for themselves.

                  So far, so bog standard. Except that every now and then a Player would do something with their character and accidentally activate their abilities. You can imagine the chaos that ensued at the table when the players realized they had 11 discipline dots as starting dots at Generation 4 with a stat cap of 9. I simply extrapolated the starting dots based off of Generation. Sure the players might have zero experience at being vampires but they are juiced up with enough premium vitae to balance that out a bit.

                  The Ante Sires were basically having a bit of fun with the Kindred community as a whole. Think of it like a private wager between fren-enmies, so they embrace a small coterie of newbies and then watch the shockwaves hit kindred society when the realizations start being processed that the Antediluvians are real, they are awake, and potentially worst of all they are creating a fresh crop of vampires that technically have more in clan status than long entrenched elders.

                  Sure every other neonate was practically howling for the PCs blood, but every elder was tripping over themselves because they realized that if they Ante's were awake and embracing, then they had a plan, and none of them wanted to be the one held responsible by their founder for letting the plan get derailed. So it turned into a bit of mutually assured destruction scenario, the PCs were untouchable due to Ante oversight, but they were simultaneously the biggest targets on the playing field.

                  I always felt that the idea that the Ante's or Cain being awake equaled instant doom for the planet was a tad silly. Bloodlines with its end game taxi ride was a good example of how the concept could be subverted.

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                  • #10
                    A newly embraced 2nd gen or 3rd wouldn't differ much from a newly embraced 10th generation vampire. Generation is basically your max potential. Age is what's really important. A 3rd gen will eventually reach levels of power that a tenth gen vampire can't but in the beginning they are pretty much the same. The only benefits in the beginning are: 1) You heal faster. 2. Dominate. The usefulness of dominate is tied to your generation. If your generation is low you could make higher generation vampires, that are perhaps more powerful then you, into your bitch. But mastering dominate would also take time. So the reverse situation might be a better example. It will allow you to resist dominate from higher generation vampires.

                    About the comments regarding Tremere or Augustus. They are powerful but hardly blood gods. I would wager someone like Menele or Mithras (peace be upon him) would beat Augustus or Tremere in a one vs one fight. And these two aren't even the top dogs of the Methuselahs, nevermind the Antes.

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                    • #11
                      In my games it works this way:

                      Caine is not dead and is not a "simple" vampire either. He's a "proto-human" built with a much higher potential than "normal humans" of the current world of Darkness. Adam, Eve, Abel and Lilith were/are the same (Eve for example is none other than the Lady of Fate from Wraith). Osiris, Isis, Thoth were the same as well, and the same is true for many of the creatures that were known as gods in ancient times AND for all of the 2nd generation/antediluvians. In Caine's case the difference is he's ALSO the focus of a truly powerful curse by God himself which torments him but at the same time gives him an incredible amount of power. Thanks to Lilith Caine found a way to manipulate the curse (to an extent) and to lessen its effects by "sharing" it with others. The 2nd generation was created this way.

                      It's important to understand these events took part in a time before time itself existed as we know it, because Demons and Angels were at war and could literally rewrite reality, which they did as means of battle (think Mage: the Awakening archmages warring with each other and rewriting reality in the process). Caine was aligned with Lucifer and the demons and, after "embracing" Enoch he lived in the city that would later be remembered as "The first city". Long story short, Caine allowed his 3 childer to embrace and they did so 15 times, sometimes from other cities (that's what happened with Set, for example). These childer received a part of the curse as well, although less than what their progenitors were given, they also were mystically prevented from siring more progeny. When the great war for reality ended and the demons were defeated time and reality "shifted and were anchored in place by the angels, great cataclysms scurged the Earth and the city of Enoch was destroyed although Caine was able to salvage a fragment of it, placing it inside a well hidden part of the newly created underworld.

                      Anyway, when reality was set anew and time started to flow as we know it (around circa 8.000 years ago) Caine was nowhere to be found but the 2nd generation survived and so did their progeny. They enslaved several tribes of humans (which were less powerful than they used to be as one of the changes to reality introduced by the angels was making humanity potential much more difficult to accomplish) and built their "Second City". For a time the 2nd generation ruled, served by their progeny, this went on for centuries but could not last. The 3rd generation rebelled and slew the 2nd along with 2 of their number who sided with their sires. Then the 3rd generation started to rule the Second City, and, having removed their progenitors, were finally able to sire. This was the time the likes of Ur-Shulgi, several of the Niktuku, Samiel and the 3 progenitors of the Baali were embraced. The rule of the 3rd generation lasted for a long time as well, but the very act of embracing childer that were not meant to be, along with the manipulation of the Curse involved in the act had the effect to wake Caine. He manifested himself in the Second City throne room and forced all the surviving members of the 3rd generation to attend him. Then he judged them, gave them their clan curses and vanished right after summoning the echoes of his slain childer's souls, bringing them with him to the fragment of Enoch hidden in the underworld (they are known as the Aralu). After that the 13 surviving antediluvians left the Second City.

                      Many of them had feuds with each other and they now dreaded Caine's return as well, for they had experienced how he had mastered over the Curse and could strip them of their powers, so they started to search for ways to avoid Caine's wrath or to challenge his power. The 4th generation was able to create progeny, which had previously been impossible, so did the 5th and so on until the 13th genration, but no more (this would of course change by the time of the Dark Ages).

                      TL; DR;

                      In my games:

                      -Caine cannot embrace, he shared his Curse with the second generation and that was it. He cannot share the curse again UNLESS he wipes out the whole of the vampiric race, which would allow him to "recover" the whole of the Curse and that's something so terrible even he is loath to do so.

                      -The 2nd generation is dead: they might or might not exist as wraiths but they are not vampires anymore.

                      -The 3rd generation can embrace but doing so WEAKENS their power and the same is true for any other vampire sired through theior lineage (in other terms, Caine turned them into focuses for their own Curses, the more vampires of their lineage exist the weaker they become, after a certain point this causes them to take action to cull their number). When siring progeny, the antediluvians may gain powerful pawns but those are also potentially manipulable by other antediluvians, which means they are extremely careful doing so.

                      -Having drunk the blood of Cappadocius, Augustus Giovanni has the raw potential of a member of the third generation BUT because he was not able to devour his soul Augustus did not gain the insight and knowledge possessed by his sire. This means that although he's got a lower generation he's basically "just" a powerful member of the 4th generation and a really awesome necromancer, but powerwise he's not comparable to true antediluvians.

                      -Tremere is currenly controlling Goratrix's body while Saulot has taken over his own corpse. Saulot is obviously of the 3rd generation but Tremere is too, as he lowered his generation when he ritually destroyed most of the Tremere Antitribu. The ritual was imperfect though and Tremere knows the power he gained is gradually fading away. As far as power goes, Tremere shared his soul with Saulot for 8 centuries, he gained a lot of insight on the powers and abilities of third generation vampires which makes him all too aware he NEEDS to stay 3rd generation if he hopes to survive their machinations.

                      Last edited by Haquim; 07-13-2019, 10:01 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Okay those are some really cool ideas and I’ve thought about a few of them before, like the idea of embracing weakening the strongest generations.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #13
                          In one of my variations on the setting, I established that Caitiffs were in facts descendants of vampires embraced by Caine after the Flood. It was a huge plot point, because vampires hunting down Caitiffs as the end time approached was waking up the Methuselahs and lower generation Clanless.


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