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About Lucita - doubts about her name and origin

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  • About Lucita - doubts about her name and origin

    Not that it would matter to contemporary games since she is old enough to not care anymore, but relevant when playing a dark ages game, I have some questions about one of the most (if not THE most) iconic characters of World of Darkness.

    To put some context, I am from Barcelona, one of the core centers of the then Crown of Aragon, where she is from. Also, I like history, although I am far from a scholar in the subject. So, when such an important figure in WoD is related to the history of my homeland, I am naturally curious. This post is mostly matching RealWorld(tm) historical facts with WoD, so if you are not into that, feel free to ignore the entire post. I enjoy intermingling such things.

    If anything cannot be answered here, if you point me to the right clanbooks/manuals/novels it would be highly appreciated.

    Where does that name come from?
    One of my first questions is the name. Lucita looks like a diminutive of Lucia. The problem is... I haven't heard that anywhere else. Is it based on real grounds? Actually talking with other players and Storytellers here in Spain no one has ever heard of it and dismiss it as poor documentation when the character was created, probably invented by the authors who wanted it to sound cool and exotic, but which sounds odd when you belong to that culture. Is Lucita used anywhere? Honest question.

    I had doubts about whether even Lucia should be appropriate. There are many cultures and languages in Spain, more so in the middle ages. Lucia is the Castillian form (Castillian would become modern Spanish), and the languages in the Crown of Aragon were Aragonese and Catalan. I don't know the Aragonese form, but the Catalan would be Llucia. Then I learned that her father, Alfonso II (known both as The Chaste and The Troubadour) married Sancha of Castille, so yup, Lucía in Castillian form totally makes sense.

    Lucita, though, not so sure about that. It could be considered she took this form after the embrace, perhaps much after it...

    About her father, besides the purely historical facts (won some battles, conquered some territory on now southern France, was a patron of arts) I don't know much, but the fact that he has two nicknames makes me imagine him as a current New Born Christian. Troubadours are not known to be chaste, so if Lucita ever told her story it could easily go something like "Well, Dad was cool and fun when I was little, but the crown weighs and he became sullen and severe with the years. Yeah, Monçada didn't help much with that."

    Alternative Fanboy theory

    On Wikipedia, I found the list of children Alfonso II had with Sancha, which is:
    The last one is quite intriguing... her birth year is closer to official Lucita's embrace rather than birth. Lucita's birth is listed at white wolf fan wiki as 1170, so she should be the older of all the kids.

    Intriguing means cool. Dulcia resembles Lucia, although I see the Catalan and Spanish wikis mention the nun daughter respectively as Dolça and Dulce (as in the french Douce, quite a common feminine medieval name as well, which means sweet).

    Plus she became a Nun, which links her to the church and Monçada.

    Plus, her death date is unknown, which is both intriguing and cool.

    So, was that her real name? Her mortal name being actually Dulcia (Aragonese for Douce?), but since she was way too rebellious and clearly not the sweet submissive girl her father expected her to be, after the embrace, she changed it to Lucia and it eventually became Lucita? Was she so rebellious that her father renounced to marry her to any noble, imagining her causing a diplomatic incident with that noble, and dropped her to a monastery? Was that advised by Moncada, who took the opportunity to embrace her there?

    Hey, if some PC learned about her real name is "Sweet", it would be a great temptation to tease her with it. A dangerous temptation.

    PC: Hey, Sweetheart! That is your real name, is it?

    PC disappears in a cloud of screams and shadows

    Nitpicking 1
    I see her referenced both as Lucita y Aragon (Where that "y" comes from?) and Lucita de Aragon (Correct for Castillian form, although Aragonese and Catalan would probably use Lucita d'Aragón/Lucita d'Arago. Maybe it has some historic grounds, but every time I see her mentioned with the "y" it sounds to me as odd as Luci(t)a.

    Nitpicking 2
    This is huge nitpicking, bordering silliness: her appearance. In Whitewolf fan wiki, she is described as
    Tall and willowy, with olive skin and dark black hair, Lucita exemplified the classic appearance of old Spanish nobility.
    That is true and false, at least on RealWorldtm, but may work in WoD. Old Spanish nobility prided themselves of their old Visigoth lineages, not always that being true. In Spain you can find people of many distinct features: Some of us have that look, some are darker even close to middle eastern looks, and some of us are pale skinned blondies. Old Spanish nobility saw themselves like that and prided on it. Examining the tomb of a Petter III of Aragon, a descendant of Lucita's father, it was discovered that he actually dyed his hair to be blond.

    So, this is how Lucita is depicted in Iberia by Night, a probable historically accurate look. I agree it looks a bit too much like an angry teenager rather than someone in her twenties.


    Although I agree this is much cooler:


    How did their fathers look though? Well, to a degree we know it. Her father, being a patron of arts, funded a book called "Liber Feudorum Maior" about his family line. There he appears a couple of times, one of them with his wife Sancha, Lucita's mother. These drawings are contemporary to him:



    It needs to be noted that the guy was paying for the book and to be depicted as he wanted. And that his grand-grandson dyed his hair to be blond(er?).


    And here is a non-contemporary drawing from the late XVI century, with his dynasty already extinct, which would count as to how people later imagined them, which is closer to the classic mediterranean trope:



    But yup, if we like to mix RealWorldtm with WoD facts, Lucita would probably look like slightly darker caucasian not unlike southern France people, although that doesn't make it impossible for her to look like the more stereotyped Mediterranean looks. Some of us look like that, when working on my Barcelona By Night there are NPCs (nonetheless than the Prince) looking like that and that is why the nitpicking degree here is bigger.

    References:
    https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Lucita_de_Aragon
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfonso_II_de_Arag%C3%B3n


  • #2
    This posting is good, and deserves a bump up the page.

    Edit: Alfonso didn't marry until 1170, 4 years after Lucita birth. Maybe she was illegitimate.
    Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 07-17-2019, 12:36 AM. Reason: Lucita made me do it.

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    • #3
      That would be interesting as well... I guess after her father getting married her relation with him would change and not for good, leading her to be more rebellious and stubborn, although makes it more difficult for her to use the Aragon family name.

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      • #4
        I'm of the mind Lucita is probably so the character's name can be copyrighted as just naming her Lucia wouldn't make her easy to find or remember.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          I have always figured that the elders have has so many names traveling through history, in the modern age they would have to change as just moving two villages wouldn't be good enough to reinvent yourself.

          In my KC - Heartland of Darkness campaign, we have 3 elders that are in the city, but outside of the common vernacular. The three have full histories and we have developed names that they have used through history. It has been fun to build them and we have had a lot of fun making them into the powers behind the plots in KC.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Strangelove View Post
            That would be interesting as well... I guess after her father getting married her relation with him would change and not for good, leading her to be more rebellious and stubborn, although makes it more difficult for her to use the Aragon family name.
            It would also explain her father attempting to send her to a convent - she could not be a part of the family and something had to be done with her. Her dark hair probably came from her mother. I can't help with the name.

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            • #7
              Very good research here, though.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                I'm of the mind Lucita is probably so the character's name can be copyrighted as just naming her Lucia wouldn't make her easy to find or remember.
                Not sure about that... Beckett and Anatole have very real life names. Actually when I first read Beckett I reacted like "Woah... they have Samuel Beckett here?". I guess names were chosen/changed having in mind how they sounded, and I cannot say if Lucia sounds like a too much common name from an anglosaxon perspective.

                Originally posted by Chaifi View Post
                I have always figured that the elders have has so many names traveling through history, in the modern age they would have to change as just moving two villages wouldn't be good enough to reinvent yourself..
                That is what would make more sense to me, her begining with a name but changing it later to something she felt suited her better, or different enough from her origins she wasn't reminded of them anymore.

                Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post


                It would also explain her father attempting to send her to a convent - she could not be a part of the family and something had to be done with her. Her dark hair probably came from her mother. I can't help with the name.
                It wasn't that uncommon to send kids to convents by that time, either permanent or temporarily. This version can be more interesting, but removes the "I could have been married to a powerful noble house if I had chose to be submissive, but I am not" and may add the "Unfair laws removed my privilege and turned me into an outcast". Also, the nun daughter would be the last one, but that can change in WoD vs RealWorldtm.

                I like the name evolution I described, so I think I will use it in my games

                About the looks, I think what bothered me more was taking those for granted and the part describing all old Spanish nobility as such rather than its impossibility. Which is not that big, just a bit unlikely.


                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                Very good research here, though.
                Thanks! It was mostly going through Lucita's bio, her father's bio and some stuff i knew from before.

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                • #9
                  Her name is Lucia d'Aragon. It was Monçada who dubbed her "Lucita". She states this in the Clan Novel Trilogy by Bruce Baugh when she is in trial for the death of his sire, and a ghost from the court of Aragon remembers her as "the poor lost one" among the living descendants of Alfonso II. She was probably born in 1173 (since both Transylvania by Night and Transylvania Chronicles I: Dark Tides Rising states her having an apparent age of 17), this does make her being a child of 16 year old Alfonso... which would be weird. Guess this was just not looked for thoroughly back in the days when internet barely existed.

                  Lucia was a common spanish speaking name at that time (be it in castilian, leonese or aragonese). Why she is called "Lucita"? I'd ask Kathleen Ryan, since she playtested as her in the Vampire the Dark Ages book, it's probably her creation. Though I remember the times of the Underworld copyright issue and the book used for the trial was Dark Tides Rising as the first appearance of Lucita.

                  - Saga
                  Last edited by Saga; 07-18-2019, 08:15 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Random factoid: I named a character from my Agent G books after Lucita.

                    https://www.audible.com/pd/Agent-G-Audiobook/B06XW17WDY

                    She's a cyborg assassin, though.



                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Saga View Post
                      Her name is Lucia d'Aragon. It was Monçada who dubbed her "Lucita". She states this in the Clan Novel Trilogy by Bruce Baugh when she is in trial for the death of his sire, and a ghost from the court of Aragon remembers her as "the poor lost one" among the living descendants of Alfonso II. She was probably born in 1173 (since both Transylvania by Night and Transylvania Chronicles I: Dark Tides Rising states her having an apparent age of 17), this does make her being a child of 16 year old Alfonso... which would be weird. Guess this was just not looked for thoroughly back in the days when internet barely existed.
                      Not exactly, remember we are speaking of the middle ages, being father at 16 is far from far-fetched - Edward the Black Prince was born before Edward III could complete 18 (and was already king of england for 3 years & a half). And that's almost a century and half after Lucita's lifetime...
                      Last edited by Baaldam; 07-18-2019, 04:02 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                        Not exactly, remember we are speaking of the middle ages, being father at 16 is far from far-fetched - Edward the Black Prince was born before Edward III could complete 18 (and was already king of england for 3 years & a half). And that's almost a century and half after Lucita's lifetime...
                        Ok, first of all I made a mistake in the previous post. Lucita is the daugher of Alfonse I of Aragon (who live from 1073 to 1134, which would probably make her the youngest child of him) and NOT Alfonse II, (TC1-DTR, pg. 80), damn I hate not seeing this thoroughly.

                        - Saga

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                          Not exactly, remember we are speaking of the middle ages, being father at 16 is far from far-fetched - Edward the Black Prince was born before Edward III could complete 18 (and was already king of england for 3 years & a half). And that's almost a century and half after Lucita's lifetime...
                          Yup, anyone who has played CKII webbing political alliances knows you can marry your spawn as soon as they turn 16 although if we go with the bastard version it doesn't really matter

                          Originally posted by Saga View Post

                          Ok, first of all I made a mistake in the previous post. Lucita is the daughter of Alfonse I of Aragon (who live from 1073 to 1134, which would probably make her the youngest child of him) and NOT Alfonse II, (TC1-DTR, pg. 80), damn I hate not seeing this thoroughly.

                          - Saga
                          Are you sure? In the wiki it says her father is Alfonso II, if he were Alfonso I then birth and embrace dates don't match. Should any of those facts be attributed to Unreliable Narrator?

                          On a different matter I found the Aragonese wiki, with no new info besides the aragonise version of Alfonso's name: Alifonso II d'Aragón https://an.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alifon...%27Arag%C3%B3n

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Strangelove View Post
                            Are you sure? In the wiki it says her father is Alfonso II, if he were Alfonso I then birth and embrace dates don't match. Should any of those facts be attributed to Unreliable Narrator?
                            It's also given as Alfonso I in Encyclopaedia Vampirica, though I thought it was a misprint. Her bio there seems to be chopped together from different versions.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Strangelove View Post

                              Yup, anyone who has played CKII webbing political alliances knows you can marry your spawn as soon as they turn 16 although if we go with the bastard version it doesn't really matter

                              Of course bastards matter, sucession lines and swordsmanship wouldn't be the same without them!

                              Originally posted by Saga View Post

                              Ok, first of all I made a mistake in the previous post. Lucita is the daugher of Alfonse I of Aragon (who live from 1073 to 1134, which would probably make her the youngest child of him) and NOT Alfonse II, (TC1-DTR, pg. 80), damn I hate not seeing this thoroughly.

                              - Saga

                              It happens, not like anyone here took the time to canon-check either.


                              Aah, speaking of checking books stuff and for little bit of curiosity, check out the "daughter of the manor" in page 37 of Libellus Sanguinis 1: Masters of the State.

                              Maybe compare & contrast to a Dark Ages write-up of Lucita for extra fun.

                              Damn, now i'm feeling an itch of sorts to check some of the templates in the Libellus Sanguinis for possible expies of Anatole (not really, the "crusader of the crooked cross" is more like mirror universe Anatole, might be said), Vykos (the "Displaced Master" could fit him with Constantinople as "fallen voivode's castle", but i maybe even more so for Ilias cel Frumos, of the DA Tzimisce clan novel) or other signature characters....
                              Last edited by Baaldam; 07-19-2019, 08:52 AM.

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