Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

About Lucita - doubts about her name and origin

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Ok, this is getting a bit confusing, and going through literary licenses between WoD and RWtm.

    Which would be the sources that made the wiki mention her father Alfonso II with matching birth and embrace dates? It seems in some places it is mentioned one king and in other places another one.

    I've started the Lasombra trilogy where Lucita visits Zaragoza, her family palace, and remembers her old days, without mentioning their names. It could match any of both. She mentions growing in Aljaferia palace, conquered with the city of Zaragoza by Alfonso I in 1118. Mentions her grandfather as a warrior who died fighting by the moors, who matches both Alfonso I's father Sancho and Alfonso I himself (his nickname was The Battler). It mentions a monument depicting this grandfather as a warrior (true for Alfonso I) in Moorish-embellished style (false) next to that palace (false as well).


    So... it seems mostly it is taken features from different real people mixing them up. I am ok with this since it is a fictional work, but since some real historic facts had been taken would have been nice to track them all.

    Still... in the end, was it Alfonso I, his grand-grand-son II, or whatever you prefer for your chronicles when relevant (if you do)?


    I haven't found contemporary depictions on Alfonso I, but here is the monument built in the early XXth century:

    Comment


    • #17
      About the name/title Lucita, it has crossed my mind if it wasn't once Lucida and got mangled/twisted by chronists through the ages, sort of like romanean Draculea became the better known popularly Dracula...

      Honestly, a quick check on the dates of Alfonso the Battler's life make it quite improbable he might Lucita's father, at least without a number of decades as a ghoul under Monçada. While not 100% perfect, Alfonso II seems to make a much closer fit going by a quick search through the wiki. That said, i also came across this curiosity along the way.
      Last edited by Baaldam; 07-19-2019, 09:44 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

        It would also explain her father attempting to send her to a convent - she could not be a part of the family and something had to be done with her. Her dark hair probably came from her mother. I can't help with the name.
        About the convent, I believe in medieval times this was done to bar a child from the inheritance of titles.

        If he had no sons, she might inherit, in Aragon I believe they had males and females could inherit. If she married a noble and had a brother civil war would be possible if she was in the line of succession. Or small feudal war if not of high rank in the nobility.

        Comment


        • #19
          Trying to reconcile all the details of the NPCs to real world events and people is futile. It doesn't work for Critias, for Marcus Vitel, for Capone, or any of the others. (My own interest in Critias is that it make fora better story if he was a bastard Menele tried to make into a better person, rather than Critias actually being Socrates). The details will never mash smoothly.

          If I have to nail it down, I would say Lucia was born to a young mans affair before his marriage and became a problem - this would keep the 1170 date of her birth, and her temperament. Influenced by Moncada, her father placed her in a convent, were Moncada embraced her.

          Comment


          • #20
            The explanation is probably more simple, Lucita is a common name in Mexico and that would sound "aragonian" to the writters.

            (La explicación es muy simple, Lucita es un nombre mejicano relativamente común y les sonaría razonablemente "aragonés" a los autores.)
            Last edited by Justycar; 07-19-2019, 05:14 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Strangelove View Post

              Yup, anyone who has played CKII webbing political alliances knows you can marry your spawn as soon as they turn 16 although if we go with the bastard version it doesn't really matter



              Are you sure? In the wiki it says her father is Alfonso II, if he were Alfonso I then birth and embrace dates don't match. Should any of those facts be attributed to Unreliable Narrator?

              On a different matter I found the Aragonese wiki, with no new info besides the aragonise version of Alfonso's name: Alifonso II d'Aragón https://an.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alifon...%27Arag%C3%B3n

              As very oftenly, wiki is VERY WRONG. just check Transylvania Chronicles I: Dark Tides Rising.

              - Saga

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                Trying to reconcile all the details of the NPCs to real world events and people is futile. It doesn't work for Critias, for Marcus Vitel, for Capone, or any of the others. (My own interest in Critias is that it make fora better story if he was a bastard Menele tried to make into a better person, rather than Critias actually being Socrates). The details will never mash smoothly.
                Actually, it might be possible the Brujah Critias was not intended to be Plato's uncle and the tyrant (that in fact would be in his 30s at the time of his embrace, that based on the fluff could not be more than a few years after the plague in Athens that took Pericles among many other natives) but the grandfather of the same and possibly one of the two narrators in one of Plato's dialogues.

                A tale about a mighty civilization ruled by the lines of 10 semi-divine rulers, its rise, corruption, fall and damnation/destruction by the gods. Curious, no?

                Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                If I have to nail it down, I would say Lucia was born to a young mans affair before his marriage and became a problem - this would keep the 1170 date of her birth, and her temperament. Influenced by Moncada, her father placed her in a convent, were Moncada embraced her.
                Seems to work well enough, i think.
                Last edited by Baaldam; 07-21-2019, 10:54 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Talvas View Post

                  About the convent, I believe in medieval times this was done to bar a child from the inheritance of titles.

                  If he had no sons, she might inherit, in Aragon I believe they had males and females could inherit. If she married a noble and had a brother civil war would be possible if she was in the line of succession. Or small feudal war if not of high rank in the nobility.
                  I need to check how specific laws were, since many times they were evaluated in a case by case scenario. Anyway, if she had a male brother, inheritance would default to him.

                  Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                  Trying to reconcile all the details of the NPCs to real world events and people is futile. It doesn't work for Critias, for Marcus Vitel, for Capone, or any of the others. (My own interest in Critias is that it make fora better story if he was a bastard Menele tried to make into a better person, rather than Critias actually being Socrates). The details will never mash smoothly.

                  If I have to nail it down, I would say Lucia was born to a young mans affair before his marriage and became a problem - this would keep the 1170 date of her birth, and her temperament. Influenced by Moncada, her father placed her in a convent, were Moncada embraced her.
                  That would work for me.

                  Originally posted by Justycar View Post
                  The explanation is probably more simple, Lucita is a common name in Mexico and that would sound "aragonian" to the writters.

                  (La explicación es muy simple, Lucita es un nombre mejicano relativamente común y les sonaría razonablemente "aragonés" a los autores.)
                  i think we have a winner. Specially in times were documentation was harder with no internet and all, Mexico was usually the reference for the hispanic world as a whole. And it could have nailed it, but world is often more complex. and they picked a kingdom quite complex in cultural and historic terms.

                  Originally posted by Saga View Post


                  As very oftenly, wiki is VERY WRONG. just check Transylvania Chronicles I: Dark Tides Rising.

                  - Saga

                  Yup, though I am still intrigued were those dates come from. I'll re-read Iberia by Night, maybe they they come from there.
                  Last edited by Strangelove; 07-22-2019, 04:11 AM. Reason: It deleted all the responses to quotes except the last one!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Not in Spain, male only primogeniture began during the reign of Phillip when the french crown almost passed to england, through a marriage.

                    Basically since France became male only the son of the french wife of the English king was no longer able to inherit a title she never had and it went to the old kings brother and started the Hundred Year war.

                    I can cite sources if you like, Spain was never male only and may have been absolute primogeniture.

                    In fact no one was male only until the hundred years war when they dragged up old salic law to keep the crown from england.

                    Edit: And if you could find a few people with armies to back you all you need is to be somewhat legitimately an heir. Even if not the preferred heir.
                    Last edited by Talvas; 07-22-2019, 08:03 PM.

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X