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Do you think that bloodlines was, in any way, a sexist game?

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  • Anyway, I might talk a lot of hate about BL2 but you guys make some good arguments on why a game being "woke" has nothing to do with whether it flops or not, and how internet forums like 4Chan draw connections out of nowhere. Some of which I couldn't phrase myself. Thanks and carry on the good work.

    Also to those who hold tight to the "Get woke: go broke" philosophy I'd like you to play one of the newer Night Dogs games and tell me whether being "woke" has soiled their quality and enjoyability, or enhanced them.

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    • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
      and not using cheap tactics like videos (asking people to take time to watch them
      I actually ended up watching one of the four videos after screening who they were by. The one about Battlefield V is actually a really good video about why the game sucks (not that all the content in it is great). Interestingly, I might have cited it if I knew about it. The video lists five problems with the game: glitches that are never patched properly making all modes unplayable, a battle royale mode nobody asked for but was thrown in because it's a trend in FPS games, adding premium currency and microtransactions, EA and DICE using goodwill over the previously successful BF games to mislead customers, and the dishonesty in how EA and DICE have responded to how incomplete the game was at release and their focus on new largely cosmetic features instead of fixing the game. Wokeness is... not the problem. The closest thing to that in the whole video is the guy that made it relating a story from when he was seven, had taken some martial arts classes, and tried to impress his girlfriend with his moves but got kicked in the face for his trouble... with the lesson that martial arts for seven year olds is bullshit; not that getting kicked by a girl was actually a problem.

      and not quoting his words as "snip" (not even sure what snip is supposed to mean lol)
      Just to add a bit more context to this, before we could directly tag people with the @ function like we can now, quoting with a snip was the only way to get the system to notify a user that you'd responded directly to them. While now outdated in most forum software systems, it's remained a normal part of the etiquette because those things take time to fade.

      Originally posted by NotEmpathic View Post
      It's not. It should be made for as broad an audience as possible, but the trend seems to be only aiming at progressive targets, to the detriment of a good game.
      To add to what's been said on this:

      It's impossible to make a game that's designed for a broader audience without aiming at "progressive" targets, because those people are all the people video game culture isn't appealing towards in terms of content.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        Just to add a bit more context to this, before we could directly tag people with the @ function like we can now, quoting with a snip was the only way to get the system to notify a user that you'd responded directly to them. While now outdated in most forum software systems, it's remained a normal part of the etiquette because those things take time to fade.
        yeah, that was silly of me, I shouldn't have assumed


        -

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        • Hi there! Mod here.

          While I fully realize sexism was the topic of the thread from the get go, some posters may need to be reminded that misogynistic, homophobic leaning posts are not likely to be well received on the forums for a company that famously champions progressive issues
          .

          So let's stop talking about how wokeness is ruining the industry. It isn't.


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          • Originally posted by PenDragon View Post
            Hi there! Mod here.

            While I fully realize sexism was the topic of the thread from the get go, some posters may need to be reminded that misogynistic, homophobic leaning posts are not likely to be well received on the forums for a company that famously champions progressive issues
            .

            So let's stop talking about how wokeness is ruining the industry. It isn't.
            On the subject of, ahem, "wokeness". In the Bloodlines 2 thread, when i said i hoped that Malkavians would not be given "realistic and respectful" real mental issues i was shouted down for having the wrong opinion. The example of Hellblade was brought up a few times. I had to leave the thread.

            Now, i'm a schizophrenic, one of the prime wacky/sinister mental conditions. Seeing and experiencing "realistic and respectful" depictions of my symptoms is bad for me. All the people who suffer from similar symptoms to me that i have asked about agree, we avoid things like this because it might actually set off episodes. While i get the impression that the people telling me i was wrong had the best intentions, i got the feeling that "realistic and respectful" is how a progressive person is meant to want mental illness represented, while people who actually have to deal with being mentally ill will just have to put up with it being unweloming.

            Mental illness is hellish, and in my experience, anyone who actually suffered from it would not want it mirrored in the game. "realistic and respectful" is the exact opposite of what all the schizophrenics i've spoken to want. It excludes us.

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            • While I'd rather not have this turn into a continuation of something from a different thread, I'll offer up a different phrase to operate under: "authentic and purposeful."

              When bringing up something that is a real world drama in a work of fiction, it's best to strive for these two things. Authenticity is more important than realistic portrayals, because it allows for using fantasy elements to remove things a bit for the comfort of the audience. However the story told still needs to resonate with those that experience the issue. No video game trying to include commentary on sexism should have a section that amounts to, "realistic sexual harassment simulation minigame." But the story still needs to find ways to make discrimination feel real in the game in order to make its point about it.

              Being purposeful means not just tossing things in because it fits your concept of the setting or your authorial asides. Sexism is bad. But making it fun to explore sexism in a game means you have to decide carefully on all the elements that go into this. I hope at this point it's clear that I think this is where BL 1 falls down. It has lots of elements for an authentic story about the ills of sexism, but lacks to the purpose in execution to take it from just including enough sexism to make people that have to deal with it IRL uncomfortable, to actually getting to a compelling story/arc about it to allow an emotional catharsis at the end to release the negativity inherent in dealing with these topics.

              Ultimately though, it's always going to be "best" not "perfect" for these things. No matter how well executed, some people are going to have to tap out rather than continue for their own emotional well being.

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              • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                While I'd rather not have this turn into a continuation of something from a different thread, I'll offer up a different phrase to operate under: "authentic and purposeful."

                When bringing up something that is a real world drama in a work of fiction, it's best to strive for these two things. Authenticity is more important than realistic portrayals, because it allows for using fantasy elements to remove things a bit for the comfort of the audience. However the story told still needs to resonate with those that experience the issue. No video game trying to include commentary on sexism should have a section that amounts to, "realistic sexual harassment simulation minigame." But the story still needs to find ways to make discrimination feel real in the game in order to make its point about it.

                Being purposeful means not just tossing things in because it fits your concept of the setting or your authorial asides. Sexism is bad. But making it fun to explore sexism in a game means you have to decide carefully on all the elements that go into this. I hope at this point it's clear that I think this is where BL 1 falls down. It has lots of elements for an authentic story about the ills of sexism, but lacks to the purpose in execution to take it from just including enough sexism to make people that have to deal with it IRL uncomfortable, to actually getting to a compelling story/arc about it to allow an emotional catharsis at the end to release the negativity inherent in dealing with these topics.

                Ultimately though, it's always going to be "best" not "perfect" for these things. No matter how well executed, some people are going to have to tap out rather than continue for their own emotional well being.
                I'm not trying to restart the arguments from back then, this just seemed like the perfect point to illustrate how being "progressive and inclusive" can actually force people out that it's trying to be nice to.

                Being heavy handed with a message is quite often counter productive. Like in V5, when i read the "Nazis can GTFO of our game" bit i went, hmm, this is not a good thing. I'm not a Nazi, but that kind of moronic statement is just, i don't know, childish? Like, if you're having to make a Sexism Is Bad statement, who is that for? Sexists aren't going to have their mind changed by that and reasonable people are left scratching their heads going, well, duh... Likewise in V5, i get the message that Conservatives Are Bad, so the Camarilla is now the Conservative sect. If it had been left there, with some subtle stuff scattered about so people can draw their own conclusions it would have been groovy. But instead its The Cam are 1% ers, they oppress the thinbloods, all hail the Anarchist Social Movement! Subtle as a brick. And i'll be honest, a whole lot less interesting and engaging.

                I've never played Bloodlines, i've mentioned before, because form everything i'd seen upto a few months ago, the only "Good" ending was the Anarch one, and that sect just does not interest me at all.

                Again i'm not trying to make grand sweaping proclimations, i know i'm in the minority on here, but just because a good message is being pushed, it doesn't make the product a good one.

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                • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post

                  I'm not trying to restart the arguments from back then, this just seemed like the perfect point to illustrate how being "progressive and inclusive" can actually force people out that it's trying to be nice to.

                  Being heavy handed with a message is quite often counter productive. Like in V5, when i read the "Nazis can GTFO of our game" bit i went, hmm, this is not a good thing. I'm not a Nazi, but that kind of moronic statement is just, i don't know, childish? Like, if you're having to make a Sexism Is Bad statement, who is that for? Sexists aren't going to have their mind changed by that and reasonable people are left scratching their heads going, well, duh... Likewise in V5, i get the message that Conservatives Are Bad, so the Camarilla is now the Conservative sect. If it had been left there, with some subtle stuff scattered about so people can draw their own conclusions it would have been groovy. But instead its The Cam are 1% ers, they oppress the thinbloods, all hail the Anarchist Social Movement! Subtle as a brick. And i'll be honest, a whole lot less interesting and engaging.

                  I've never played Bloodlines, i've mentioned before, because form everything i'd seen upto a few months ago, the only "Good" ending was the Anarch one, and that sect just does not interest me at all.

                  Again i'm not trying to make grand sweaping proclimations, i know i'm in the minority on here, but just because a good message is being pushed, it doesn't make the product a good one.
                  Allow me to share a story with you.

                  Nazis in the Deep South, Me, and Gaming

                  Warning - Sensitive Subject but everything here is true

                  My name is C.T. Phipps and I'm from Ashland, Kentucky. One of the things that I've often talked about in my state is that we have a severe Nazi problem. Whenever I brought it up, I got the oddest reaction of being dismissed or treated as making hyperbolic statements. I stated how much I liked using Nazis as villains in my modern games and was told, "Nazis don't exist in the Modern Age." or I was being stupid because "I had an agenda."

                  The thing is. when I refer to Nazis, I'm referring to the people who fly around Nazi flags, belong to racist gangs that control the meth as well opiod trade, and are numbering about 400,000 people in my home state alone. They proudly say they are Nazis, they get swasztica tattoos, and they sell Nazi paraphernalia--because they're Nazis. They might also be Neo-Confedeates and while some people deny the connection, fuck those guys.

                  They're not hiding in my state and only last year did they lose their "right" to sell at the Kentucky state fair for children.

                  https://www.courier-journal.com/stor...er/2003010002/

                  This happened at a Kroger an hour minutes from my house, FYI.

                  https://www.post-gazette.com/news/cr...s/201810250203

                  Funny how they call him mentally ill versus just saying he's a white supremacist who wanted to massacre a church of black people and ended up "just" killing a pair of people at the grocery store.

                  Now as terrible as well as horrifying as it is to know all of the criminals in my state tend to be an "ethnic" gang (the irony being ethnic in this means "white"), you might think that has very little overlap with gaming.

                  How I wish that were true.

                  You see, thirty minutes from my house is Huntington, WV where I was part of the LARP and White Wolf roleplaying community pretty heavily. We gathered around all the game stores, had a box of index cards for finding fellow gamers, and often shared books between us. We were a diverse bunch except for the fact that we were hemorraging fans. A lot of women, Hispanic, and Asian gamers who used to belong to the group left and I never new why. We were a couple of hundred people total and I never met most but the story was shared to me a couple of times.


                  Eventually, it was found out to be a "friend" (I would probably say acquaintance now since I apparently knew shit about him). Let's call him Randall after his character. We communicated over the internet a lot back in those early days of message boards and e-mail. Randall was a creepy fucker. He was always polite to me but often made jokes with the "just kidding" defense, talked trash about women, wasn't too kind about immigrants, and loved the Get of Fenris for odd reasons like their "Pure Viking awesomeness."

                  Little did I know as off-putting as he was, Randall was actually on his best behavior with me. He eventually got kicked out of the LARPS for inapproprate behavior to women (having gone from jokes to touching as well as harrassing them for sex after game) and racist tirades about Kuei-Jin and the Tremere character of another friend--angry at me that I didn't defend him as well as others.

                  Randall was a Nazi and still is one actually. He contacted me on Facebook once and I noped the fuck out before blocking him. He had an entire crew though now. Gamers, white supremacists, and misyogynists one and all.

                  He also isn't even the only guy I've met like him over the years. Not even close. They were banned from some boards I frequent and I had to leave others. It was a sobering reminder geek culture was not any more progressive or immune to the appeal of evil ideologies (some might use "toxic" but I see no reason to hide from that).

                  Randall is not a guy who should be allowed into the games held by my friends. He represents the opposition of the Counter-Culture ideology that White Wolf was born from. I used to be a fundamentalist evangelical before moving to more liberal Christianity and I've found those guys much better gamers to hang around.

                  So yeah, I think its important to tell these people off.

                  Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-24-2019, 01:42 PM.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • Likewise in V5, i get the message that Conservatives Are Bad, so the Camarilla is now the Conservative sect. If it had been left there, with some subtle stuff scattered about so people can draw their own conclusions it would have been groovy. But instead its The Cam are 1% ers, they oppress the thinbloods, all hail the Anarchist Social Movement! Subtle as a brick. And i'll be honest, a whole lot less interesting and engaging.
                    I've never played Bloodlines, i've mentioned before, because form everything i'd seen upto a few months ago, the only "Good" ending was the Anarch one, and that sect just does not interest me at all.

                    Again i'm not trying to make grand sweaping proclimations, i know i'm in the minority on here, but just because a good message is being pushed, it doesn't make the product a good one.
                    Sorry I had to dump that big statement above here but on a much-much less serious note, I feel like this is an interesting question itself. I'm curious your feelings regarding the Camarilla actually.

                    1. The Camarilla has alwyas been there to prop up the Elders and Princes. How is that not the conservative 1% types.
                    2. The Thin Blood oppressin was from V5 where they rceated the Scourges.

                    I mean, I thought the Anarchs being the good guys was from 1st Edition.

                    Or at least the lesser evil.

                    How did you see them? I'm curious because I've encountered this a lot.

                    Bloodlines also has a Camarilla ending where you side with the Tremere in overthrowing a corrupt Prince and become Sheriff.



                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
                      Likewise in V5, i get the message that Conservatives Are Bad, so the Camarilla is now the Conservative sect. If it had been left there, with some subtle stuff scattered about so people can draw their own conclusions it would have been groovy. But instead its The Cam are 1% ers, they oppress the thinbloods, all hail the Anarchist Social Movement! Subtle as a brick. And i'll be honest, a whole lot less interesting and engaging.

                      Actually, I think the reason the Camarilla are bad, is because of how laughably incompetent and traitorous they've proven themselves to be. They tried to manipulate mortals, mortals got wise to their scheme, mortals started to hunt vampires, and then the Camarilla blamed the Anarchs. Mortals hacked their files, and instead of doing the smart thing by fixing and updating their security (the kind of thing mortals do every single day), they decided to purge their entire data collection and communicate long distances via pony express!

                      And then they started to implement a Blood Tax, which immediately makes me think that the elders in charge of the organization are so terrified of being targeted by the Inquisition, that they are unable to feed themselves anymore, and are forcing the youngsters to go out and bring their food to them... like a senior citizen who relies on assisted living to sustain themselves. But the major difference here is the senior vampires are still hale and hardy, and thus fully capable of getting their own damn food!

                      The Camarilla are right about one thing: In the wake of the Second Inquisition, vampires need a structured form of government, if they want to survive. But the Camarilla's way of doing things makes them look like a bunch of frightened children, and not the strong leaders that they claim to be.
                      Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-24-2019, 02:35 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                        Actually, I think the reason the Camarilla are bad, is because of how laughably incompetent and traitorous they've proven themselves to be. They tried to manipulate mortals, mortals got wise to their scheme, mortals started to hunt vampires, and then the Camarilla blamed the Anarchs. Mortals hacked their files, and instead of doing the smart thing by fixing and updating their security (the kind of thing mortals do every single day), they decided to purge their entire data collection and communicate long distances via pony express!

                        And then they started to implement a Blood Tax, which immediately makes me think that the elders in charge of the organization are so terrified of being targeted by the Inquisition, that they are unable to feed themselves anymore, and are forcing the youngsters to go out and bring their food to them... like a senior citizen who relies on assisted living to sustain themselves.

                        The Camarilla are right about one thing: In the wake of the Second Inquisition, vampires need a structured form of government, if they want to survive. But the Camarilla's way of doing things makes them look like a bunch of frightened children, and not the strong leaders that they claim to be.
                        I admit, I love the fact that they tried to blame the Anarchs for revealing their existence to the world.

                        "No, YOU'RE responsible for outing us!"

                        It's such a purely Camarilla thing to do.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • Honest question though, do you think the Nazi Go Home thing would have had any effect on Randall? I've known some real pricks, not in the same league as the Nazi gangs you've mentioned, and they'd just chuckle at the idea.

                          The way you deal with these arseholes isn't as easy as putting a please stay out sign up. Anybody polite enough to obey it, well, they're not really the problem. It's the painful task of discovering them that's the communities issue. Once Randall outs himself, he's cut off.

                          Do you get me? Maybe i'm just not used to this kind of out and proud nazi thing that seems to be happening some places, but unless you talk to people, most of the time, you have no idea how they think. Like i said, it's depressing that it's got to the point of people thinking it was necessary to put it in, and that it would actually do anything other than cause a ruckus

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                          • I am from Texas and here we, sadly, have similar problems with Nazis. Nazis. In 2019. What kind of social decay are we in the middle of that Nazi are still a god damned problem 70 years after they lost a war, 70 years of pop culture pointing out they were a garbage fire?

                            In any case, I think it is sad the book needs such an on-the-nose statement about Nazis. In a sane world we should not need much messaging. But in this world we need a statement that clear and blunt and for some it will still probably be too subtle.

                            Edit: The warning will mostly serve as a kind of legal disclaimer. Like a statement of "Don't stick this entire book up your nose." If some fool does it anyway, the publishers can say "We said not to do that." The same is true of some choad-Nazi playing the game. The publishers said not to do that.
                            Last edited by Grumpy RPG Reviews; 07-24-2019, 02:28 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              Sorry I had to dump that big statement above here but on a much-much less serious note, I feel like this is an interesting question itself. I'm curious your feelings regarding the Camarilla actually.

                              1. The Camarilla has alwyas been there to prop up the Elders and Princes. How is that not the conservative 1% types.
                              2. The Thin Blood oppressin was from V5 where they rceated the Scourges.

                              I mean, I thought the Anarchs being the good guys was from 1st Edition.

                              Or at least the lesser evil.

                              How did you see them? I'm curious because I've encountered this a lot.

                              Bloodlines also has a Camarilla ending where you side with the Tremere in overthrowing a corrupt Prince and become Sheriff.

                              Yes, i found out about that ending, but no one back in the day i spoke to knew about it.

                              Honestly, i always saw the Anarchs as the kiddies not wanting to play with the grown ups. The revolt happened, Cam formed to try and survive sticking to the older traditions and the Sabbat went on their nutty tear down the elders and eldest trip. The anarchs were too immature to play proper poltics, too scared to keep fighting like the sabbat wanted to, but didn't have the gumption to go full autarkis. Honestly, they've always been the angry dregs or sullen teenagers to me. I've known a couple of people who liked the anarchs, but most of the people i've played with have had the same kind of why bother attitude to them...

                              Actually, i made a thread a while ago asking people why the like anarchs, because this board is one of the few places people do seem to like them...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
                                Honest question though, do you think the Nazi Go Home thing would have had any effect on Randall? I've known some real pricks, not in the same league as the Nazi gangs you've mentioned, and they'd just chuckle at the idea.

                                The way you deal with these arseholes isn't as easy as putting a please stay out sign up. Anybody polite enough to obey it, well, they're not really the problem. It's the painful task of discovering them that's the communities issue. Once Randall outs himself, he's cut off.

                                Do you get me? Maybe i'm just not used to this kind of out and proud nazi thing that seems to be happening some places, but unless you talk to people, most of the time, you have no idea how they think. Like i said, it's depressing that it's got to the point of people thinking it was necessary to put it in, and that it would actually do anything other than cause a ruckus
                                Yes with a caveat.

                                And

                                No with a but.

                                Obviously, no, actual Nazi criminal 1% are not going to be deterred by a statement that they should go home. I brought them up just to let people know it's not really something that is a minor issue that is made up by the media. I'm just saying in some parts of the United States, that the issue of white supremacists isn't something of an exaggerated fear. They're people who exist and kill people who piss them off. They march, burn down places, beat people up, and are also dangerous bastards.

                                Good for vampires to tear up as villains.

                                But let's be honest, it's the Randalls we should be concerned about and the fact that Randalls are pretty damn common on the internet and fandoms. The thing is about the Randalls of the world is the fact they hate being called out. Whatever forums they frequent or the groups they go to, they whine like someone has turned on a siren. For all their talk about Special Snowflakes and "can't take a joke" or whatever deflections (and sometimes people can be really obnoxious in their virtue signalling) - they loathe it when people actually call them out on being a racist or sexist asshole and they drop the attitude or get out.

                                (Some people saying banning these guys just gets them to congregate in other places that get super-toxic but it's better to get rid of them than deal with them daily)

                                Honestly, letting them know they're not welcome and their views aren't tolerated has been known to send them on their way--usually with vocal complaining and shit talking but on the way they go.

                                This is a second-hand story from the White Wolf forums in the 90s but I'm pretty sure it's true. The SWORDS OF HEIMDALL faction from Werewolf: The Apocalypse was created as a Neo-Nazi villain faction for the Get of Fenris but suddenly and completely extemrinated by the Get of Fenris in Werewolf: The Apocalypse Revised. As I understand it, the developers did that not because of in-universe needs but because people were using their "in-character" defense to get away with all sorts of racist shit talk.

                                The whining was immense but didn't need official material helping it out--and it helped some groups as I understand it or at least let the gamers who loved playing them know their opinions weren't welcome.
                                Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-24-2019, 02:27 PM.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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