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Do you think that bloodlines was, in any way, a sexist game?

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  • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post

    Yes, i found out about that ending, but no one back in the day i spoke to knew about it.

    Honestly, i always saw the Anarchs as the kiddies not wanting to play with the grown ups. The revolt happened, Cam formed to try and survive sticking to the older traditions and the Sabbat went on their nutty tear down the elders and eldest trip. The anarchs were too immature to play proper poltics, too scared to keep fighting like the sabbat wanted to, but didn't have the gumption to go full autarkis. Honestly, they've always been the angry dregs or sullen teenagers to me. I've known a couple of people who liked the anarchs, but most of the people i've played with have had the same kind of why bother attitude to them...

    Actually, i made a thread a while ago asking people why the like anarchs, because this board is one of the few places people do seem to like them...
    Well I hope I posted to it as I'm happy to talk all the live long day about them but I definitely feel like a lot of the supplements actually agreed with you. Bloodlines was one of the few serious media properties of the gameline that seemed to think the Anarchs had a point.

    For much of the end of 2nd Edition and Revised, it felt like the Sabbat stole a lot of their thunder and the Anarchs were meekly standing behind the Camarilla against them.

    It wasn't until Anarchs Unbound and now with V5 that they're getting much fair treatment. Before they were this.



    I really like that this has been changing but one of the (lesser) responses to V5 has been, "Wait, the Anarchs are a big huge sect now? SInce when? What the hell? It's like the Daughters of Capochany now rule Europe."


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
      Honest question though, do you think the Nazi Go Home thing would have had any effect on Randall? I've known some real pricks, not in the same league as the Nazi gangs you've mentioned, and they'd just chuckle at the idea.

      Honest Answer: I think the whole "Anti-Nazi" thing is kind of ridiculous, when you have things like the Blood Brothers running around assimilating people into their skinhead circles!

      Ventrue feeding habits, which I am firmly convinced are supportive of Eugenics programs.

      Brujah, who have long been portrayed as radical ideologists, who's stance on politics is usually "agree with what I say, or I'll bash your damn skull in!"

      Tremere, conducting scientific / occult research on the properties of one's blood.

      There are lots of ways that Nazi ideology can be found within the World of Darkness setting. But the thing that surprises me, is that anybody thought it was actually necessary for them to come right out and state "Hey, don't be a Nazi OOC."

      Now, as CTP pointed out, it seems like that was, in fact, necessary. But that doesn't mean it's right... it means that society is much stupider than we give it credit for, and that is frankly deprarius

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      • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


        Honest Answer: I think the whole "Anti-Nazi" thing is kind of ridiculous, when you have things like the Blood Brothers running around assimilating people into their skinhead circles!

        Ventrue feeding habits, which I am firmly convinced are supportive of Eugenics programs.

        Brujah, who have long been portrayed as radical ideologists, who's stance on politics is usually "agree with what I say, or I'll bash your damn skull in!"

        Tremere, conducting scientific / occult research on the properties of one's blood.

        There are lots of ways that Nazi ideology can be found within the World of Darkness setting. But the thing that surprises me, is that anybody thought it was actually necessary for them to come right out and state "Hey, don't be a Nazi OOC."

        Now, as CTP pointed out, it seems like that was, in fact, necessary. But that doesn't mean it's right... it means that society is much stupider than we give it credit for, and that is frankly deprarius
        I am reminded, of all things, Joss Whedon and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

        Joss Whedon got an epic amount of hate mail for the death of the character Tara in the 6th season (I believe) of the show. Tara was, at the time, one of a pair of the only lesbians on television (in the entire world at that moment) with Willow's coming out as a major moment for a lot of people. Joss' issue was the fact that Buffy the Vampire is a horror comedy show.

        It's show where regular and beloved characters die all the time because that's the medium. Like if you had milestone representation on the Walking Dead.

        V:TM is in the same sort of boat in that it is a progressive game which opened up tabletop and LARP from the previous white heterosexual celibate gamer stereotype (which was never true but we're dealing in stereotype) to a lot more women, gamers of color, and gamers of alternate sexual orientation. Chicago by Night 1st Edition was probably the first place I'd ever seen a black NPC other than the Drow.

        It shouldn't HAVE to be the place for progressive politics and making people feel safe as a horror game. A game about class warfare, murder, degradation of the soul, and damnation by impersonal cosmic forces that nevertheless hate you for who you are.

        But it's the place that WAS welcoming for a lot of gamers who felt shunned by society and still is.

        So, as the Dead Kennedys would say, "Nazi punks, fuck off."
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-24-2019, 02:59 PM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          I am reminded, of all things, Joss Whedon and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

          Joss Whedon got an epic amount of hate mail for the death of the character Tara in the 6th season (I believe) of the show. Tara was, at the time, one of a pair of the only lesbians on television (in the entire world at that moment) with Willow's coming out as a major moment for a lot of people. Joss' issue was the fact that Buffy the Vampire is a horror comedy show.
          She also had her mind sucked out by a gender fluid hell god, prompting Willow to load up her arsenal of dark magic and challenge her to a straight up fight!

          I mean, it didn't go well for Willow; but the fact she even attempted it at all was pretty awesome.

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          • Edit, oh and CTPhipps, you were by far the most vocal in defense of those quirky magicians. Still more sense for the Daughters to be running Europe than for the keystone cops to be a serious sect to me though



            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post


            V:TM is in the same sort of boat in that it is a progressive game which opened up tabletop and LARP from the previous white heterosexual celibate gamer stereotype (which was never true but we're dealing in stereotype) to a lot more women, gamers of color, and gamers of alternate sexual orientation. Chicago by Night 1st Edition was probably the first place I'd ever seen a black NPC other than the Drow.

            It shouldn't HAVE to be the place for progressive politics and making people feel safe as a horror game. A game about class warfare, murder, degradation of the soul, and damnation by impersonal cosmic forces that nevertheless hate you for who you are.

            But it's the place that WAS welcoming for a lot of gamers who felt shunned by society and still is.

            So, as the Dead Kennedys would say, "Nazi punks, fuck off."

            This is part of why it's so depressing though. Say you have a proto-randall, he's been listening to Nazi nonsence from people and is starting to lean that way. Would you rather he came to a game where there's more of a chance of him seeing the horror, or telling him to piss off and letting him keep drinking the kool-aid until he shaves his head.

            VtM is meant to be the white hats. Why are we at the point where the facists are being friendly and liberals are saying jog on? Honestly, it just exausts me thinking about it, and pushes me away

            Last edited by jamiemalk; 07-24-2019, 03:14 PM.

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            • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
              This is part of why it's so depressing though. Say you have a proto-randall, he's been listening to Nazi nonsence from people and is starting to lean that way. Would you rather he came to a game where there's more of a chance of him seeing the horror, or telling him to piss off and letting him keep drinking the kool-aid until he shaves his head.

              VtM is meant to be the white hats. Why are we at the point where the facists are being friendly and liberals are saying jog on? Honestly, it just exausts me thinking about it, and pushes me away
              I think that's how they perceive it.

              But the fact is that perspective is wrong.

              Basically, it's not, "Why are they so welcoming and the liberasses are so unwelcoming."

              It's, "The latter would be welcoming if you don't act like a Nazi."

              It's one of the things my wife said about how she used to be harassed by a bunch of guys during her Goth gamer grrl days and a very common defense was she was just dressing that way for attention and that she would never give a geek a chance or some very common refrains. Her statement that stuck with me was, "I would have loved to give geeks a chance [and did with me] but these guys were misogynist assholes to me. It wasn't their fandom that pissed me off. Otherwise, why would I be here at the con?"


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                I think that's how they perceive it.

                But the fact is that perspective is wrong.

                Basically, it's not, "Why are they so welcoming and the liberasses are so unwelcoming."

                It's, "The latter would be welcoming if you don't act like a Nazi."

                I'm not a nazi, and it doesn't feel welcoming to me...

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                • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
                  I'm not a nazi, and it doesn't feel welcoming to me...
                  At the risk of going to far, why?

                  If you are not a Nazi, then the "Nazi's can piss-off"statement should not trigger much of a response. So if it is not that which makes you feel unwelcome, then what it?

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                  • Aaagh, it's the whole principle to be honest. The world is not simple enough for that statement to have any point, and it is emblematic of a closed mind. If the World of Darkness is being this stupid and blunt, it's like a step backwards.

                    The example of my experience with the Malkavian representation. It's declaring wrongthink, and it's an awful direction to start going in. Like Nyrufa said, there are lots of elements of darker parts of the WoD, and the game would be lessened, and from where i'm looking is being lessened by that attitude.

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                    • Well, that me go a little personal.

                      I used to be the Proto-Randall. Way back in the distant age in 2000, I was a pretty unpleasant character. I wasn't racist [I know every racist thinks that but I'm giving myself the benefit of the doubt], women were a complete mystery to me but I didn't have the active resentment some geeks did, and I was a vicious homophobe. I was, worse, one of those Mike Pence vicious homophobes who thought the Bible backed him up.

                      What benefited me was an ironic combination of V:TM, Southern hospitality, and a couple of other things I'm simplifying for the sake of the story. Basically, when I showed up at games I noticed there were a lot of queer gamers--and I kept my mouth shut. Even if I was a horrible person who needed to change his views, the very fact I was willing to not mention any of it was just basic common courtesy at a table. Ironically, before I accepted other people, I was able to parse the concept of, "if you're at someone's house and they're buying pizza then you owe them basic respect. Ditto their other guests."

                      Which is a bare minimum for everyone to have fun.

                      Mind you, a little time with the people I'd mentally been hating on contributed to me realizing what an asshole I was and changing my ways [and beliefs]. So, White Wolf had a positive effect on my life but it's a two way street.

                      Like Westeros, you accept guest right then you agree to behave in exchange for not being Red Wedding-ed. If you can't behave at the table or group then you have no business being there. Changing your view is optional but recommended if you want to be part of a group that was born from the counter-culture of Atlanta and celebrates diversity. It's a principle that should apply online as well.

                      It just took me awhile to remember that.

                      Which means that it doesn't fall on other games to accept people with vicious beliefs as they have every right to kick people out rather than be the adults in the room.
                      Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-24-2019, 04:16 PM.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
                        Aaagh, it's the whole principle to be honest. The world is not simple enough for that statement to have any point, and it is emblematic of a closed mind. If the World of Darkness is being this stupid and blunt, it's like a step backwards.

                        The example of my experience with the Malkavian representation. It's declaring wrongthink, and it's an awful direction to start going in. Like Nyrufa said, there are lots of elements of darker parts of the WoD, and the game would be lessened, and from where i'm looking is being lessened by that attitude.
                        Random factoid, I'm a man with some atypical brain patterns and prefer the Malkavians keep as far away from "real" issues as possible.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                          Well, that me go a little personal.

                          I used to be the Proto-Randall. Way back in the distant age in 2000, I was a pretty unpleasant character. I wasn't racist [I know every racist thinks that but I'm giving myself the benefit of the doubt], women were a complete mystery to me but I didn't have the active resentment some geeks did, and I was a vicious homophobe. I was, worse, one of those Mike Pence vicious homophobes who thought the Bible backed him up.

                          What benefited me was an ironic combination of V:TM, Southern hospitality, and a couple of other things I'm simplifying for the sake of the story. Basically, when I showed up at games I noticed there were a lot of queer gamers--and I kept my mouth shut. Even if I was a horrible person who needed to change his views, the very fact I was willing to not mention any of it was just basic common courtesy at a table. Ironically, before I accepted other people, I was able to parse the concept of, "if you're at someone's house and they're buying pizza then you owe them basic respect. Ditto their other guests."

                          Which is a bare minimum for everyone to have fun.

                          Mind you, a little time with the people I'd mentally been hating on contributed to me realizing what an asshole I was and changing my ways [and beliefs]. So, White Wolf had a positive effect on my life but it's a two way street.

                          Like Westeros, you accept guest right then you agree to behave in exchange for not being Red Wedding-ed. If you can't behave at the table or group then you have no business being there. Changing your view is optional but recommended if you want to be part of a group that was born from the counter-culture of Atlanta and celebrates diversity. It's a principle that should apply online as well.

                          It just took me awhile to remember that.
                          That's awesome, does that not make you feel good about the game? If they'd bumped you down the road what good would that have done?

                          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                          Which means that it doesn't fall on other games to accept people with vicious beliefs as they have every right to kick people out rather than be the adults in the room.
                          As i see it, if you want to be the the moral ones, you kinda have to be the Adults in the room. Kicking the stinky kid out of the sandpit without suggesting they take a shower first is just a shitty thing to do. I've talked people out of crappy world views, and i sure as hell didn't do it by treating them as a stupid child or a social leper...

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                          • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post

                            That's awesome, does that not make you feel good about the game? If they'd bumped you down the road what good would that have done?
                            Actually, that's the thing, I knew that my views would be poorly received and that's part of the pressure that made me wonder, "Wait, am I the bad guy?"

                            And I'm also a believer in personal responsibility.

                            Other people don't owe me an explanation of why I'm the asshole. It was nice some people took some to explain to me why I was and I've tried to take it to heart.

                            But it's on me at the end.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
                              Edit, oh and CTPhipps, you were by far the most vocal in defense of those quirky magicians. Still more sense for the Daughters to be running Europe than for the keystone cops to be a serious sect to me though
                              We have the best posters and memes.



                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                                Well, that me go a little personal.

                                I used to be the Proto-Randall. Way back in the distant age in 2000, I was a pretty unpleasant character. I wasn't racist [I know every racist thinks that but I'm giving myself the benefit of the doubt], women were a complete mystery to me but I didn't have the active resentment some geeks did, and I was a vicious homophobe. I was, worse, one of those Mike Pence vicious homophobes who thought the Bible backed him up.

                                Back when I was growing up, nobody explained what homosexuality was to me. They just told me over and over again that I should avoid gay people. This lead to my brain literally translating the word "gay" as "evil" and came up with all sorts of horrible, demonic fantasies about gay people. I had actually convinced myself that being left alone in the room with a homosexual would result in them trying to eat me alive!

                                How did I cure myself of these ridiculous delusions, you ask? Well, it wasn't by staying as far away from homosexuals as humanly possible. Quite the opposite, in fact. I met some actual gay people, spending time around them and realizing they were just people who liked the same gender...

                                To put it simply, you're not going to convince people they are wrong, by simply telling them they are wrong. You have to be willing (and able) to prove it to them. And to do that, you're going to have to open the door for them, and not chase them off with torches and pitch forks.

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