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Do you think that bloodlines was, in any way, a sexist game?

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  • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    Back when I was growing up, nobody explained what homosexuality was to me. They just told me over and over again that I should avoid gay people. This lead to my brain literally translating the word "gay" as "evil" and came up with all sorts of horrible, demonic fantasies about gay people. I had actually convinced myself that being left alone in the room with a homosexual would result in them trying to eat me alive!

    How did I cure myself of these ridiculous delusions, you ask? Well, it wasn't by staying as far away from homosexuals as humanly possible. Quite the opposite, in fact. I met some actual gay people, spending time around them and realizing they were just people who liked the same gender...

    To put it simply, you're not going to convince people they are wrong, by simply telling them they are wrong. You have to be willing (and able) to prove it to them. And to do that, you're going to have to open the door for them, and not chase them off with torches and pitch forks.
    To that end the question becomes whether you're opening the door to people who intend to play nice because you have a responsibility to the good times and even safety (as some women felt) of the non-bigoted gamers.

    But YMMV and what you do at your table, online, and games is up to you.

    You are, after all, the one theoretically buying the pizza.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

      At the risk of going to far, why?

      If you are not a Nazi, then the "Nazi's can piss-off"statement should not trigger much of a response. So if it is not that which makes you feel unwelcome, then what it?
      Going to second this. There's really no wiggle room with this. "Nazi punks fuck off." is a right and proper statement 100% of the time.


      “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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      • Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post

        Going to second this. There's really no wiggle room with this. "Nazi punks fuck off." is a right and proper statement 100% of the time.
        The Dead Kenndys are pretty much the guys who did what White Wolf had to do first.

        "Listen, we don't want you as fans."


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          To that end the question becomes whether you're opening the door to people who intend to play nice because you have a responsibility to the good times and even safety (as some women felt) of the non-bigoted gamers.

          But YMMV and what you do at your table, online, and games is up to you.

          You are, after all, the one theoretically buying the pizza.
          Yeah, but if the place i order the pizza from suddenly gets judgy at me for trying to be nice, i'm gonna find somewhere else to order from.

          VtM used to be like Revised Cam, everybody was in, unless they did something heinous. Now V5 is acting like their own version of the Cam, our way or the highway, we might let you in if you agree with us utterly. It'd actually be kinda funny, if it wasn't depressing...

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          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            The Dead Kenndys are pretty much the guys who did what White Wolf had to do first.

            "Listen, we don't want you as fans."

            "Then why are the fascist Camarilla traditionally the go-to faction in your game?"

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            • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post

              Yeah, but if the place i order the pizza from suddenly gets judgy at me for trying to be nice, i'm gonna find somewhere else to order from.

              VtM used to be like Revised Cam, everybody was in, unless they did something heinous. Now V5 is acting like their own version of the Cam, our way or the highway, we might let you in if you agree with us utterly. It'd actually be kinda funny, if it wasn't depressing...
              I think that's overstating matters.

              Again, the issue is, "White Supremacists and other bigots are not welcome."

              That seems like a bare minimum of requirement there.

              https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/13/17...zi-accusations

              I mean, look at what they said.

              Jason Carl's video is a must watch there.

              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

              "Then why are the fascist Camarilla traditionally the go-to faction in your game?"
              Hey, hey, the Camarilla is FEUDALISM.

              Completely different.

              *puts on Anarch hat*

              We still have to kill them, though.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post

                Going to second this. There's really no wiggle room with this. "Nazi punks fuck off." is a right and proper statement 100% of the time.
                Nazi is getting throw around waaaay to much these days. Skinhead with a swastika tattooed on his forehead, "Fuck off" is fine. Someone who has a slightly different politcal view is not a Nazi. I've seen people called nazi for Not wanting nazis rounded up and shot. This is just crazy talk. A slightly masogyinst dude who's not got the skills to be able to talk to a woman like a person isn't a nazi, but if he gets treated like one, that's what he'll turn into. I know guys that have never talked to someone of African decent, not because they're a white supremicist, but because there are maybe 0.00001% of the population where they live, so have stupid ideas. They're not evil, just kinda dumb and inexperienced with the wider world.

                This is why the "Nazi's Fuck off" feels wrong. The word has been watered down, especially online, to almost homeopathy levels. Unless someone comes up to me and says "I'm a Nazi" i'm not going to call them one until they actually express heartfelt shitty worldview, and even then, i think there's hope to talk them out of it.

                Unless of course you tell them to fuck off...

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                • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post

                  Nazi is getting throw around waaaay to much these days. Skinhead with a swastika tattooed on his forehead, "Fuck off" is fine. Someone who has a slightly different politcal view is not a Nazi. I've seen people called nazi for Not wanting nazis rounded up and shot. This is just crazy talk. A slightly masogyinst dude who's not got the skills to be able to talk to a woman like a person isn't a nazi, but if he gets treated like one, that's what he'll turn into. I know guys that have never talked to someone of African decent, not because they're a white supremicist, but because there are maybe 0.00001% of the population where they live, so have stupid ideas. They're not evil, just kinda dumb and inexperienced with the wider world.

                  This is why the "Nazi's Fuck off" feels wrong. The word has been watered down, especially online, to almost homeopathy levels. Unless someone comes up to me and says "I'm a Nazi" i'm not going to call them one until they actually express heartfelt shitty worldview, and even then, i think there's hope to talk them out of it.

                  Unless of course you tell them to fuck off...
                  The question is, then, how much is hyperbole and how much is just accurate?

                  I'm fine with saying that sometimes fans are absolutely crazy and overconcerned with virtue signalling. V5 was attacked repeatedly by a bunch of people looking to generate controversy and missed it's one of the most progressive games out there.

                  But there's both the absolute nadir (Nazis) and then there's assholes beyond that well before you get to, "your typical gamer who just wants to play."


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
                    A slightly masogyinst dude who's not got the skills to be able to talk to a woman like a person isn't a nazi
                    You mean the vast majority of boys prior to (and sometimes even during) the years of puberty?

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                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      The question is, then, how much is hyperbole and how much is just accurate?

                      I'm fine with saying that sometimes fans are absolutely crazy and overconcerned with virtue signalling. V5 was attacked repeatedly by a bunch of people looking to generate controversy and missed it's one of the most progressive games out there.

                      But there's both the absolute nadir (Nazis) and then there's assholes beyond that well before you get to, "your typical gamer who just wants to play."
                      I see waaay more people called Nazi than show any kind of actual nazi view. My problem is the people shouting are starting to act more like the assholes. Hell, i got called a Nazi for saying that people shouldn't be beaten in the streets. Tribalism is going nuts. For us or against us is not a game i like to play.

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                      • In every new shoe box, home to a new set of shoes, is a small package of crystals used to attract moisture and keep the shoes dry and free of mildew. On this little package are instructions not to eat the package of toxic, moisture drawing, crystals. This is done presumably because some fool ate the package years ago.

                        I take the "Nazi's fuck off" statement in the book on a similar level; fools make it necessary.

                        And I know the difference between someone political and/or social conservative and a damned Nazi.

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                        • So, I'm going to just be blunt.

                          As far as I'm concerned, if you have some sort of problem with people saying, "Nazis fuck off," because of some sort of mealy mouthed appeal about people using Nazi at people that aren't "real" Nazis, then you are 100% a person that's going to stand and applaud when Jews are rounded up to get gases.

                          The Holocaust didn't just happen because of Nazis. It happened because of a lot of not-Nazis sitting around ignoring the Nazis being Nazis, appeasers, people that didn't care because it wasn't their problem, and all the other fence-sitters that decided some half-assed moral justification beat out, "10 million innocent people were murdered while you did nothing but pat yourself on the back for claiming it wasn't the right time to speak up and act."

                          So on behalf of all my relatives I never met because the Nazis murdered them, all the others forced to be refugees and have since passed, if you care at all about the calling out "real" Nazis, spend your time caring about what people are actually doing and actually saying, rather than sitting around lamenting word choices. Never forget how many people have died because people with the power to save them wasted it debating with each other instead of actually doing something.

                          ------------------

                          Also, this is a thread about sexism and Bloodlines? We're not really talking about either at this point.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                            So, I'm going to just be blunt.

                            As far as I'm concerned, if you have some sort of problem with people saying, "Nazis fuck off," because of some sort of mealy mouthed appeal about people using Nazi at people that aren't "real" Nazis, then you are 100% a person that's going to stand and applaud when Jews are rounded up to get gases.

                            The Holocaust didn't just happen because of Nazis. It happened because of a lot of not-Nazis sitting around ignoring the Nazis being Nazis, appeasers, people that didn't care because it wasn't their problem, and all the other fence-sitters that decided some half-assed moral justification beat out, "10 million innocent people were murdered while you did nothing but pat yourself on the back for claiming it wasn't the right time to speak up and act."

                            So on behalf of all my relatives I never met because the Nazis murdered them, all the others forced to be refugees and have since passed, if you care at all about the calling out "real" Nazis, spend your time caring about what people are actually doing and actually saying, rather than sitting around lamenting word choices. Never forget how many people have died because people with the power to save them wasted it debating with each other instead of actually doing something.

                            ------------------

                            Also, this is a thread about sexism and Bloodlines? We're not really talking about either at this point.
                            There's a definite argument not to devalue the term Nazi by throwing it around casually.

                            The internet created Godwin's Law for a reason.

                            But my point was there's plenty of actual non-nonsense Nazis in gaming and we've got to keep them away from our stuff because they will try and take it for their own.

                            They've tried to do it in Warhammer 40K and it wasn't a joke, they tried to use it to recruit people.

                            It's why I have my characters drop the casual, "Fuck Nazis" in my books whenever I can because it shouldn't be controversial but it is.

                            Same for Wolfenstein.

                            And I'm done here.

                            Good conversation guys. I think we've exhausted the original topic.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                              There's a definite argument not to devalue the term Nazi by throwing it around casually.

                              The internet created Godwin's Law for a reason.
                              True. Then again...

                              As for the "Fuck off nazis" disclaimer in the book, I must say I like it. Of course WW can't prevent nazis from playing, But WW can make sure that when they do, they know they're playing a game made by people who despise them.

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                              • I agree with Godwin, it's Gif, not Jif. And leave arguing over nazis to people who know any.

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