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Do you think that bloodlines was, in any way, a sexist game?

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  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

    To be fair, the stock Nosferatu model from just before the curse sets in appears to be the Brujah. So you were an extra large, buff dude when you were mortal.
    ah shit, thanks for ruining my fantasy

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  • Perisa
    replied
    Originally posted by mark View Post
    Keep in mind that vampires are not really supposed to care about sex. They have no physical sexual drive. So they might appreciate a beautiful person, but only intellectually, they will not be "turned on" by him/her
    To be honest I hope they don´t lean too heavily into this because it does seem to play to the stereotype of asexuality being in some ways less human than experiencing sexual attraction.
    I realise it´s probably an Ann Rice thing but lower humanity=asexual and/or impotent don´ t always go over well with players.
    As for the game I agree with Fuzzball that the problem is less bad depiction of women and more the assumption that the player is both male and straight.There should be more equal opportunity to live out your fantasies really.

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

    also, all the male chars are extra large buff dudes, except the nosferatu,
    To be fair, the stock Nosferatu model from just before the curse sets in appears to be the Brujah. So you were an extra large, buff dude when you were mortal.

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  • Cifer
    replied
    Originally posted by mark View Post
    Keep in mind that vampires are not really supposed to care about sex. They have no physical sexual drive. So they might appreciate a beautiful person, but only intellectually, they will not be "turned on" by him/her
    I disagree. Vampires are creatures of longing - the lust for blood is close enough to more mundane desires that almost all pertaining tropes carry over without even squinting. Compare socially hunting for blood to hunting for a one-night-stand and tell me what's different in the way you would frame a scene, both from the vampire's and the victim's point of view.

    Originally posted by Jeevesosiris View Post
    I think that an argument could be made that it is... but it is not something that concerns me really and not an argument I would make myself. I think if you look hard enough you can find sexism in all aspects of society really.
    Well... yeah.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Jeevesosiris View Post
    I think that an argument could be made that it is... but it is not something that concerns me really and not an argument I would make myself. I think if you look hard enough you can find sexism in all aspects of society really.
    I think there's some irony about the game in the fact that it is only noticeable because so many women otherwise like it and the female characters are so well-developed and liked by female gamers.

    It's one of those cases like, "It's a bit spicy" versus "This is a dumpster fire I would never play."

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  • Jeevesosiris
    replied
    I think that an argument could be made that it is... but it is not something that concerns me really and not an argument I would make myself. I think if you look hard enough you can find sexism in all aspects of society really.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by mark View Post
    I wonder what the solution is. Should the new game present women as less sexualised, or should it also sexualise men. Cause, being gay, i admit i like the second option a bit more
    Bloodlines is actually a game incredibly popular among women. One of the more popular as a whole and up there with Dragon Age, Life is Strange, and KOTOR if not Warcraft.

    It would also be weird to have non-sexualized vampires.

    Originally posted by mark View Post
    Keep in mind that vampires are not really supposed to care about sex. They have no physical sexual drive. So they might appreciate a beautiful person, but only intellectually, they will not be "turned on" by him/her
    This is both true and misleading as the Kiss is inherently sexual by itself. So much so that mortals often climax if they're not terrified or otherwise in the wrong headspace.

    For vampires vitae is both food, drugs, and sex.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-18-2019, 07:08 AM.

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  • Pleiades
    replied
    Originally posted by mark View Post
    I wonder what the solution is. Should the new game present women as less sexualised, or should it also sexualise men. Cause, being gay, i admit i like the second option a bit more
    not being able to flirt with Isaac was probably the biggest disappointment of 20XX

    also, all the male chars are extra large buff dudes, except the nosferatu,
    meaning I could only enjoy playing the nossie as a male char

    Leave a comment:


  • mark
    replied
    Originally posted by Cifer View Post
    Considering it's vampire we're talking about, I'd go for the second, intermixed with letting sexuality be part of the storytelling rather than just serving as titillation.
    Keep in mind that vampires are not really supposed to care about sex. They have no physical sexual drive. So they might appreciate a beautiful person, but only intellectually, they will not be "turned on" by him/her

    Leave a comment:


  • pang4
    replied
    Originally posted by mark View Post
    I wonder what the solution is. Should the new game present women as less sexualised, or should it also sexualise men. Cause, being gay, i admit i like the second option a bit more
    That depends entirely upon if they want sexual content to be a theme in the game or not. (If the Toreador trailer is anything to go by, they do...)

    If they want sexual content to be a theme of the game, they would do right in providing lots of opportunities to flirt with men and women alike. Interactions would be key, showing that anyone can be equally sexy.

    If they don't want to have sexual content as a theme, they would do well to draw attention as far away from sex as they can. Focus on the vampire condition, and consciously make your character turn away from sex in favor of blood, and stuff like that...

    Leave a comment:


  • Cifer
    replied
    Originally posted by mark View Post
    I wonder what the solution is. Should the new game present women as less sexualised, or should it also sexualise men. Cause, being gay, i admit i like the second option a bit more
    Considering it's vampire we're talking about, I'd go for the second, intermixed with letting sexuality be part of the storytelling rather than just serving as titillation.

    Leave a comment:


  • mark
    replied
    Originally posted by fuzzball6846 View Post
    I think there was a disparity in the way female characters were sexualized in comparison to male characters.

    Almost every female character in Bloodlines wears highly revealing clothing and/or immediately flirts with the PC (Jeanette, Velvet, Venus, Heather, Pisha, every blood doll in a club and possibly Ming Xiao).

    Then there are the minor characters who solely exist as props to arouse the protaganist (Jezebel, Chastity, Misti, Nadia).

    Of all the female characters in Bloodlines, only six remain un-sexualized (Damsel, because she's meant to be a bitch; Doris, because she's an old lady; Patty, because she's annoying; Kiki, because she's annoying/a bitch; Samantha, because she's meant to be a moral anchor for the PC; and Lily, because she's madly in love with another man).

    Comparatively, only two male characters have scantily-clad outfits (Jack and Mitnick, neither of which were meant to be attractive) and only Romero flirts with the PC.



    That being said, I wouldn't consider Bloodlines to be a sexist game.

    Most of the female characters have varied and detailed personalties. The overt sexuality of characters like Jeanette and Velvet adds to their narratives, rather than reducing them. Most female characters are sexualized, yes, but they aren't objectified. Compared to most games circa 2004, and many games today, Bloodlines was ahead of its time.



    While I don't consider Bloodlines to be sexist, it's not wrong to call it a "male power fantasy". Most video games, especially ones about vampires or other supernatural creatures, are power fantasies. That's the point. Being a reality-bending, superhuman creature is the definition of a power fantasy.

    What makes a game like Bloodlines a "*male* power fantasy" is its strong partiality towards a male audience. It assumes (rightly or wrongly) that the player is a young man who will enjoy having scantily-clad vampire women flirt with him. It also assumes that having a joint 'female power fantasy' narrative would reduce male interest.

    There's nothing wrong with male power fantasies. Some of the most amazing games I've played have been male power fantasies, Bloodlines among them. But, as a female gamer, I would prefer a game that also catered to my interests. Male power fantasies have dominated the Action/Adventure genre of gaming/TV/movies for decades. I think the addition of some diversity is probably a good thing.
    I wonder what the solution is. Should the new game present women as less sexualised, or should it also sexualise men. Cause, being gay, i admit i like the second option a bit more

    Leave a comment:


  • pang4
    replied
    As with most things, I feel defining our terms would solve almost all of our problems. What do we mean when we say "sexist"?

    According to Google, sexism is "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex."
    Sociologist Richard Schafer defines sexism as "an ideology in which one sex is considered superior to another".
    Author Bell Hooks defines sexism as "A system of oppression that results in disadvantages for women."

    According to the latter two of these definitions, there are some pretty easy metrics we can follow to test VtMB for sexism. Does the player get any advantages/disadvantages for picking one sex over another? Do different options present themselves based on the sex of the character? Do NPCs of Power/influence of both sexes appear in roughly equal frequency.

    One thing I often see is that Sexism is conflated with Male Chauvinism. While the two are undeniably related, there are crucial differences.
    Sexism, if we choose to define it as such for this discussion, would be a SYSTEMATIC differentiation of opportunity based on sex.
    Male Chauvinism, if we choose to define it as such for this discussion, would be an IDEAL that men and women have different roles and should conform to them.

    So where does that leave VtMB? I don't know. But I do know we'll arrive at a better, more complete answer, if we define our terms before presenting argument.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Kat Phipps: I don't mind all the women being sexualized. Vampires are sexy. It's just throw something for us. After all, you can't have vampire fans without thirst.

    Hehe.

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  • lycaniz
    replied
    Dont forget the fan favorite when it comes to flirting: Chunk.

    I dont have more to add to this conversation.

    Leave a comment:

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