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Do you think that bloodlines was, in any way, a sexist game?

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  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    Hell it wasn't even Nazi Germany the trains ran on time in, it was Mussolini's italy. - Sir Completely Missing the Point.


    And the Italians were an Axis Power. Not a lot of people like to remember that, just focus on the Germans and Japanese.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Hell it wasn't even Nazi Germany the trains ran on time in, it was Mussolini's italy. - Sir Completely Missing the Point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bluecho
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I feel that historical view of thing notes that said self-esteem led to them being abominated by the rest of the world with half of the country burned to the ground then forced to be part of a second totalitarian regime as a slave state for 50 years.

    Historical note but the Nazis have since had their economic and political gains re-examined. In "Patterns of Force", yes, the Star Trek episode, Spock talks about the prevailing opinion of the time that the Nazis were a ruthlessly efficient industrial power. In truth, what we've since discovered is that the Nazis sacrificed a huge amount of their long term gains for short term benefits that were already running them dry by the end of the war and were largely propped up by the looting of occupied territories.

    In simple terms, the Nazis never would have gotten nearly as far as they had if not for the fact that people like Marshal Petain were throwing their resources into the Third Reich because they believed in its bullshit and even then it was chasing good money after bad.

    Germany didn't recover from the Great Depression because of the Nazis, they were a power that was going to inevitably--they ended up destroying themselves because of it.

    A similar thing happened with the Japanese that they were already running on fumes fighting the whole of China alone and would have lost before the US involved themselves.

    Sort of like the South and the North. The mythology doesn't trump logistics.
    ^This.

    Honestly, "the trains ran on time in Nazi Germany" is a phrase that, in retrospect, smacks of propaganda. A propaganda so effective that, even when (rightly) vilified by history, the Third Reich remains mighty in the minds of people. Undoubtedly, a brutally effective war machine that required the whole world to defeat makes for a fine enemy, and is also the exact sort of way the Nazis would prefer to be remembered. Rather than the broken and hateful ideology, burning itself out amid mismanagement and the leadership of a syphilitic madman.

    See also Folding Ideas's analysis of Triumph of the Will:

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    True enough, but thinking about it from their perspective, it wouldn't have mattered if the rest of Europe hated them, because they would have been the ones in charge of everything after winning the war.

    History is written by the victors, as they say.

    Of course, it sounds silly now that one country espousing master race philosophy could have maintained authority over the entire continent.
    My Soviet Studies professor said, "The people of the USSR may have hated Stalin in many places but if the other side wants to exterminate you, you side with the guy who doesn't."

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I feel that historical view of thing notes that said self-esteem led to them being abominated by the rest of the world with half of the country burned to the ground then forced to be part of a second totalitarian regime as a slave state for 50 years.

    True enough, but thinking about it from their perspective, it wouldn't have mattered if the rest of Europe hated them, because they would have been the ones in charge of everything after winning the war.

    History is written by the victors, as they say.

    Of course, it sounds silly now that one country espousing master race philosophy could have maintained authority over the entire continent.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    The Nazi's did a lot of terrible things to people, and racked up a massive body count. That's certainly true, and nobody is going to deny it, without getting slapped in the face. But at the time that they were in power, they got a failing country up and running again, as well as restoring some measure of self esteem to a government that was in desperate need of it.
    I feel that historical view of thing notes that said self-esteem led to them being abominated by the rest of the world with half of the country burned to the ground then forced to be part of a second totalitarian regime as a slave state for 50 years.

    Historical note but the Nazis have since had their economic and political gains re-examined. In "Patterns of Force", yes, the Star Trek episode, Spock talks about the prevailing opinion of the time that the Nazis were a ruthlessly efficient industrial power. In truth, what we've since discovered is that the Nazis sacrificed a huge amount of their long term gains for short term benefits that were already running them dry by the end of the war and were largely propped up by the looting of occupied territories.

    In simple terms, the Nazis never would have gotten nearly as far as they had if not for the fact that people like Marshal Petain were throwing their resources into the Third Reich because they believed in its bullshit and even then it was chasing good money after bad.

    Germany didn't recover from the Great Depression because of the Nazis, they were a power that was going to inevitably--they ended up destroying themselves because of it.

    A similar thing happened with the Japanese that they were already running on fumes fighting the whole of China alone and would have lost before the US involved themselves.

    Sort of like the South and the North. The mythology doesn't trump logistics.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

    The Holocaust didn't just happen because of Nazis. It happened because of a lot of not-Nazis sitting around ignoring the Nazis being Nazis, appeasers, people that didn't care because it wasn't their problem, and all the other fence-sitters that decided some half-assed moral justification beat out, "10 million innocent people were murdered while you did nothing but pat yourself on the back for claiming it wasn't the right time to speak up and act."

    So on behalf of all my relatives I never met because the Nazis murdered them, all the others forced to be refugees and have since passed, if you care at all about the calling out "real" Nazis, spend your time caring about what people are actually doing and actually saying, rather than sitting around lamenting word choices. Never forget how many people have died because people with the power to save them wasted it debating with each other instead of actually doing something.

    ------------------

    Also, this is a thread about sexism and Bloodlines? We're not really talking about either at this point.

    I don't care what kind of wizardry you pull out of your pointy hat, nobody stands in front of a crowd and declares they're going to wage war upon every other country on the planet, as well as purge the country of ethnic minorities, then have everyone in the country go "let's give this guy absolute power!"

    Also, the people who you claim were ignoring the problem didn't "have the power to stop them." The entire reason why Hitler rose to power in the first place, is because Germany was in dire straights, both financially and politically. They needed somebody who was strong, intelligent, and charismatic enough to bring them back to some measure of stability, and Hitler proved to be that man in their eyes. Heck, the Nazi's were actually on the verge of winning the war, until Hitler got over confident and decided to attack the Russians at the same time he was attacking the Allied forces.

    The Nazi's did a lot of terrible things to people, and racked up a massive body count. That's certainly true, and nobody is going to deny it, without getting slapped in the face. But at the time that they were in power, they got a failing country up and running again, as well as restoring some measure of self esteem to a government that was in desperate need of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • jamiemalk
    replied
    I agree with Godwin, it's Gif, not Jif. And leave arguing over nazis to people who know any.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cifer
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    There's a definite argument not to devalue the term Nazi by throwing it around casually.

    The internet created Godwin's Law for a reason.
    True. Then again...

    As for the "Fuck off nazis" disclaimer in the book, I must say I like it. Of course WW can't prevent nazis from playing, But WW can make sure that when they do, they know they're playing a game made by people who despise them.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    So, I'm going to just be blunt.

    As far as I'm concerned, if you have some sort of problem with people saying, "Nazis fuck off," because of some sort of mealy mouthed appeal about people using Nazi at people that aren't "real" Nazis, then you are 100% a person that's going to stand and applaud when Jews are rounded up to get gases.

    The Holocaust didn't just happen because of Nazis. It happened because of a lot of not-Nazis sitting around ignoring the Nazis being Nazis, appeasers, people that didn't care because it wasn't their problem, and all the other fence-sitters that decided some half-assed moral justification beat out, "10 million innocent people were murdered while you did nothing but pat yourself on the back for claiming it wasn't the right time to speak up and act."

    So on behalf of all my relatives I never met because the Nazis murdered them, all the others forced to be refugees and have since passed, if you care at all about the calling out "real" Nazis, spend your time caring about what people are actually doing and actually saying, rather than sitting around lamenting word choices. Never forget how many people have died because people with the power to save them wasted it debating with each other instead of actually doing something.

    ------------------

    Also, this is a thread about sexism and Bloodlines? We're not really talking about either at this point.
    There's a definite argument not to devalue the term Nazi by throwing it around casually.

    The internet created Godwin's Law for a reason.

    But my point was there's plenty of actual non-nonsense Nazis in gaming and we've got to keep them away from our stuff because they will try and take it for their own.

    They've tried to do it in Warhammer 40K and it wasn't a joke, they tried to use it to recruit people.

    It's why I have my characters drop the casual, "Fuck Nazis" in my books whenever I can because it shouldn't be controversial but it is.

    Same for Wolfenstein.

    And I'm done here.

    Good conversation guys. I think we've exhausted the original topic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    So, I'm going to just be blunt.

    As far as I'm concerned, if you have some sort of problem with people saying, "Nazis fuck off," because of some sort of mealy mouthed appeal about people using Nazi at people that aren't "real" Nazis, then you are 100% a person that's going to stand and applaud when Jews are rounded up to get gases.

    The Holocaust didn't just happen because of Nazis. It happened because of a lot of not-Nazis sitting around ignoring the Nazis being Nazis, appeasers, people that didn't care because it wasn't their problem, and all the other fence-sitters that decided some half-assed moral justification beat out, "10 million innocent people were murdered while you did nothing but pat yourself on the back for claiming it wasn't the right time to speak up and act."

    So on behalf of all my relatives I never met because the Nazis murdered them, all the others forced to be refugees and have since passed, if you care at all about the calling out "real" Nazis, spend your time caring about what people are actually doing and actually saying, rather than sitting around lamenting word choices. Never forget how many people have died because people with the power to save them wasted it debating with each other instead of actually doing something.

    ------------------

    Also, this is a thread about sexism and Bloodlines? We're not really talking about either at this point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    In every new shoe box, home to a new set of shoes, is a small package of crystals used to attract moisture and keep the shoes dry and free of mildew. On this little package are instructions not to eat the package of toxic, moisture drawing, crystals. This is done presumably because some fool ate the package years ago.

    I take the "Nazi's fuck off" statement in the book on a similar level; fools make it necessary.

    And I know the difference between someone political and/or social conservative and a damned Nazi.

    Leave a comment:


  • jamiemalk
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    The question is, then, how much is hyperbole and how much is just accurate?

    I'm fine with saying that sometimes fans are absolutely crazy and overconcerned with virtue signalling. V5 was attacked repeatedly by a bunch of people looking to generate controversy and missed it's one of the most progressive games out there.

    But there's both the absolute nadir (Nazis) and then there's assholes beyond that well before you get to, "your typical gamer who just wants to play."
    I see waaay more people called Nazi than show any kind of actual nazi view. My problem is the people shouting are starting to act more like the assholes. Hell, i got called a Nazi for saying that people shouldn't be beaten in the streets. Tribalism is going nuts. For us or against us is not a game i like to play.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post
    A slightly masogyinst dude who's not got the skills to be able to talk to a woman like a person isn't a nazi
    You mean the vast majority of boys prior to (and sometimes even during) the years of puberty?

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by jamiemalk View Post

    Nazi is getting throw around waaaay to much these days. Skinhead with a swastika tattooed on his forehead, "Fuck off" is fine. Someone who has a slightly different politcal view is not a Nazi. I've seen people called nazi for Not wanting nazis rounded up and shot. This is just crazy talk. A slightly masogyinst dude who's not got the skills to be able to talk to a woman like a person isn't a nazi, but if he gets treated like one, that's what he'll turn into. I know guys that have never talked to someone of African decent, not because they're a white supremicist, but because there are maybe 0.00001% of the population where they live, so have stupid ideas. They're not evil, just kinda dumb and inexperienced with the wider world.

    This is why the "Nazi's Fuck off" feels wrong. The word has been watered down, especially online, to almost homeopathy levels. Unless someone comes up to me and says "I'm a Nazi" i'm not going to call them one until they actually express heartfelt shitty worldview, and even then, i think there's hope to talk them out of it.

    Unless of course you tell them to fuck off...
    The question is, then, how much is hyperbole and how much is just accurate?

    I'm fine with saying that sometimes fans are absolutely crazy and overconcerned with virtue signalling. V5 was attacked repeatedly by a bunch of people looking to generate controversy and missed it's one of the most progressive games out there.

    But there's both the absolute nadir (Nazis) and then there's assholes beyond that well before you get to, "your typical gamer who just wants to play."

    Leave a comment:

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