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Do you think that bloodlines was, in any way, a sexist game?

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  • Originally posted by Morty View Post
    How on earth is "let's make it so the game that doesn't assume it'll be played by a straight man" even a political or controversial statement?
    Anything that challenges the political and social hegemony of straight men in our current society in inherently political, because challenging the status quo is political.

    That it's controversial in 2019 is just a sad comment on how little progress we've made as a society.

    Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
    Excuse me? Requiem and V5 did the exact opposite of that. They actually made the mechanics more in tune with the personal horror themes.
    I think you misunderstood me. We seem to be in agreement that Requiem and V5 moved to downplay the power fantasy/action aspects of the game and focus more on the horror side of the game.

    I was trying to say that those games put roadblocks to playing power fantasy straight out of the core books, not that they made the games about power fantasy.

    I dont understand why the direct media adaptation of Vampire wouldn't try to be faithful to the source material, why they need to make it into a shallow power fantasy.
    It's worth remembering that for all the cult classic status of Bloodlines 1, it's initial release was extremely poorly received, and killed Troika since the company simply did not have the resources to bring their intended game to fruition... and even trying bankrupted them. All the people that knew the Troika folks seem to disagree with your pessimism. Troika was an Icarus of a company that took on too big of a task, flew to high, and crashed for it, rather than a company out to play it safe.

    It's quite possible a better funded and staffed version of them could have done a better game with it... but it's long past a time to really know.

    Video games are the death of art.
    No, they're not. Any more than all the other times people decried a new entertainment medium as the death of art (which is practically every time). Most entertainment based art is not high minded stuff, and it never has been, because entertaining has always beat out strong artistic vision. It's always been the rare talents that can meld vision and appeal, and create really special things. The problem is those are the ones we tend to remember and repeat as a culture; forgetting all the crap that was their competition at the time.

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    • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

      snip

      How

      About

      I just

      Leave these

      Here?

      Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

      As for Andromeda? A bugfest rushed during development with such great technical issues it became a meme. Andromeda didn't went down because it was "woke", it went down because bioware has died of starvation and deadlines.
      No, the reason why Andromeda failed, is because they abandoned it to work on Anthem, which is such an absolute shit fest, that Fallout 76 has more players still attending it right now.

      As for Andromeda itself, two of it's lead developers were an openly confirmed racist African American, who went onto social media and aggressively insulted white people. Even challenging them to physical conflicts for seemingly no reason whatsoever.

      As for the other, she was a hard core feminist, who seemed to take great pride in making the female models of the game as hideous and badly animated as possible, and then went on a rant towards the fans about how she didn't care if they thought the game looked ugly. Because making female models even slightly attractive set off her "that's objectifying women!" alarms.
      Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-22-2019, 08:45 AM.

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      • pls no arguing with videos,

        if those vids have any arguments/facts you'd like to use,
        better translate them in your post or link their sources (preferably not other vids)


        -

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        • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
          pls no arguing with videos,

          if those vids have any arguments/facts you'd like to use,
          better translate them in your post or link their sources (preferably not other vids)

          Just seemed like the most expedient way to get the point across, since those people have already done the research and fact checking, not to mention are probably more educated / qualified to talk about the subject than I am.

          But alright.
          Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-22-2019, 10:32 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
            Anything that challenges the political and social hegemony of straight men in our current society in inherently political, because challenging the status quo is political.

            That it's controversial in 2019 is just a sad comment on how little progress we've made as a society.
            Yeah, that was more of a rhetorical question. Still, it seems that a discussion about Bloodlines has mostly turned into several people trying to argue with one person who is throwing around completely unsupported claims about entirely unrelated media and people who worked on them.
            Last edited by Morty; 07-22-2019, 09:51 AM.

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            • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


              Just seemed like the most expedient way to get the point across, since those people have already done the research and fact, not to mention are probably more educated / qualified to talk about the subject than I am.

              But alright.
              just saying,

              heavy arms always makes the effort to properly present his arguments, with good english, and in a way that is very clear (even when the topic is complicated)

              I don't necessarily agree with him, but we owe it to him to at least make the same effort,
              and not using cheap tactics like videos (asking people to take time to watch them, and effectively adding 4 more people to the conversation, even though they're not even members in the forum),
              and not quoting his words as "snip" (not even sure what snip is supposed to mean lol)


              -

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              • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post


                and not quoting his words as "snip" (not even sure what snip is supposed to mean lol)
                It's supposed to be a way to cut down on the word count, when you're reply quotes a lot of text all at once. It's not intended to be disrespectful, just a means of conserving space. I learned it from seeing others on the forum do it, too.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                  It's supposed to be a way to cut down on the word count, when you're reply quotes a lot of text all at once. It's not intended to be disrespectful, just a means of conserving space. I learned it from seeing others on the forum do it, too.
                  oh...I see


                  -

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                  • The wild party of straw men an fallacies.


                    I just saw the video about the Last Jedi, and it tells nothing about the Last Jedi being a commercial failure or about Disney "go broke because it went woke". It's only a lot of rants about the script and the writing, so it is a straw man.

                    The original point was

                    The moment they started to sacrifice good story telling for shoehorning their political ideologies into the setting, they started to lose money BIG TIME. And it was only after some of these companies realized "alright, nobody wants this crap, let's go back to what we were doing before" that they finally started to see their finances recover.

                    I will spare my self precious time and I will not see the other videos, because if they are like the video about TLJ I would waste my time, since they say nothing useful about the main matter we are discussing.

                    So, do we have some hard numbers? Maybe something published by Buisness Insider, Forbes and so on and not just a youtube video by "ragingneckbeard90?"
                    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 07-22-2019, 01:10 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

                      Ah yes, safe and shallow moral choices that has little to none personal horror elements in fear of soiling the player's escapist power fantasy. Thank you, next.

                      When the video game adaptation actually focuses on the horror rather "kewl vampire powers" and makes a sliver of an effort to be close to the source material in a way that is not skin deep, you can call me.
                      A bit judgey there.

                      Also, frankly, not at all worthy of a fan of V:TM.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • On my end?

                        If you think that adding more sexually appealing options to gay and female gamers is going to ruin or be too political for a game then you are very strange as it certainly contributed to the dedicated fandoms of Bioware games like Mass Effect: Andromed anad Dragon Age.

                        However, it's weird to draw the line at Vampire: The Masquerade.

                        Which is ALREADY a game that is considered ahead of the curve and beloved by women as well as sexual minorities.

                        And generally friendly to both more so than the vast majority of video games.

                        It's like saying, "Is Life is Strange sexist?"



                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Morty View Post
                          How on earth is "let's make it so the game that doesn't assume it'll be played by a straight man" even a political or controversial statement?
                          It's not. It should be made for as broad an audience as possible, but the trend seems to be only aiming at progressive targets, to the detriment of a good game.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                            As for Andromeda itself, two of it's lead developers were an openly confirmed racist African American, who went onto social media and aggressively insulted white people. Even challenging them to physical conflicts for seemingly no reason whatsoever.

                            As for the other, she was a hard core feminist, who seemed to take great pride in making the female models of the game as hideous and badly animated as possible, and then went on a rant towards the fans about how she didn't care if they thought the game looked ugly. Because making female models even slightly attractive set off her "that's objectifying women!" alarms.

                            Ok, I'll ask for source.


                            Because as far as I know Andromeda flopped because


                            IGN
                            an expansive action role-playing game with a few great moments that recapture the high points of the landmark trilogy that came before it, and energetic combat and fantastic sound effects contribute to a potent sci-fi atmosphere. Without consistently strong writing or a breakout star in its cast to carry it through the long hours and empty spaces, however, disappointments like a lack of new races, no companion customization, and major performance problems and bugs take their toll.
                            Gamespot

                            Unfortunately, there's a dark cloud hanging over all of this: technical issues. Sure, the facial animations really don't look great, but the problems run deeper. On PS4, the framerate was all over the place both in and out of action. On both PS4 and PC, I encountered several audio issues, most notably multiple lines of dialogue playing at the same time, covering each other. I also saw other random glitches like characters that failed to load during conversations, exiting a conversation to find myself a room away from where I was previously, and enemies that fell into the level geometry. None of these issues rendered the game unplayable, but they were noticeable and pervasive.
                            In many ways, Andromeda feels like a vision half-fulfilled. It contains a dizzying amount of content, but the quality fluctuates wildly. Its worlds and combat shine, but its writing and missions falter--and the relative strength of the former is not enough to compensate for the inescapable weakness of the latter. As a Mass Effect game, Andromeda falls well short of the nuanced politics, morality, and storytelling of its predecessors. For me, the series has always been about compelling characters and harrowing choices, so to find such weak writing here is bitterly disappointing. Yet even after 65 hours, I still plan on completing a few more quests. The game can't escape its shortcomings, but patient explorers can still find a few stars shining in the darkness.


                            Guardian

                            One unfortunate obstacle to falling for these new characters is the writing, which is inconsistent to the point of embarrassment. The overarching narrative stuff is clichéd – the big bad alien overlord, your dad’s motivation for creating the AI that sort of lives in your head via a neural implant – and so are many of the characters. Some of the implications of starting life in a new galaxy are disappointingly downplayed: first encounters with new species, the psychological effects of leaving your home 600 years in the past, the opportunity to try different ways of living, and so on.


                            So I see a lot of good reason for Andromeda to Flop, and none has anything to do with the game being "woke".


                            And again: I ask for source about the

                            wo of it's lead developers were an openly confirmed racist African American,
                            hard core feminist, who seemed to take great pride in making the female models of the game as hideous and badly animated as possible,

                            And not because that would change anything, since the review are pretty clear about the real problems that made the game flop, but because as much as I searched I couldn't find a direct source about these issues, and the only thing I found are sordid gamergate rants full of conspiracy and fake news from Ethan Ralph and other fascists and white suprematists.


                            https://kotaku.com/scumbags-harass-w...dro-1793410647



                            Allie Rose-Marie Leost, who worked for EA’s motion-capture labs in Vancouver, saw vicious harassment on Twitter and other websites today, most often from people who blamed her for Andromeda’s awkward facial animations. The harassment appears to have been primarily triggered by a vile blog post at Ralph Retort, a right-wing, GamerGate-tied website, that claimed Leost was the lead facial animator on Andromeda. That website also accused her of performing sexual acts to get her job at EA.




                            Fake news above fake news, that Bioware already confirmed being fake






                            https://www.polygon.com/2017/3/18/14...tor-harassment



                            It is an oblique rebuttal of this claim, made yesterday by Ethan Ralph, that the "lead facial animator" at Electronic Arts' Montréal studio is a woman who ascended to that role only because of her celebrity as a cosplayer.
                            BioWare's statement above refutes that she ever was in a position of leadership, or that she is currently employed by the studio. It's unclear what her status with BioWare is or was. We’ve reached out to an Electronic Arts representative to confirm.

                            So the thing about the "hardcore femminist who sabotaged the game" is fake, as obvious as it was.


                            Now I would ask for source about the "lead developer african american racist".


                            Here are the full credits of the game, I want the name of the "racist lead developers".
                            Because I know who you are talking about, and he was not a lead developers but just one simple developers among the miriads that made the game, and he had no leading role.




                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPQoQkGRHYo
                            Last edited by Undead rabbit; 07-22-2019, 02:08 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by NotEmpathic View Post

                              It's not. It should be made for as broad an audience as possible, but the trend seems to be only aiming at progressive targets, to the detriment of a good game.
                              I think it's the other way around,
                              it's when they try to please everyone that they fuck up, or the game and its characters turn out bland

                              however, when they narrow their focus (on progressives or otherwise), it tends to be better


                              -

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NotEmpathic View Post

                                It's not. It should be made for as broad an audience as possible, but the trend seems to be only aiming at progressive targets, to the detriment of a good game.
                                In addition to what Pleiades said, it's hard to take this analysis(?) seriously for a number of reasons.

                                First there's no coherent designation for progressive to completely tailor to so it's difficult to really see how you'd tailor a game to that. It begins to look even more strange if you start to replace progressive in that sentence with things like, "People that think LGBT are not inherently immoral and deserve the same rights and considerations all human beings should have." or really any other relatively specific ethical or political statement you can reasonably call progressive.

                                Secondly, there's no correlation that games that feature subject matter that the worst dregs on the internet "accuse" of being progressive in tone are inherently and consistently commercial failures. I'm at work so I don't have a good exhaustive list to reference easily but off the top of my head The Last of Us and Life is Strange come to mind as two qualifying games that did well and were well recieved.

                                This is all before even tackling the immense hurdle that is proving that a game would fail ONLY due to that messaging element and not due to technical issues, marketing issues. etc. And I think this thread has demonstrated well that a non lazy analysis of the industry puts to bed the laughable notions behind the bad " Get woke get broke." Nonsense. As was well put earlier, this isn't 4chan, or the CofD discords or whatever other Mos Eisley corner of the internet. A serious anaylsis of the art form of video games needs more than feels not reals surface level observations.


                                “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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