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[V5] Players Handbook - What do you want to see

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  • #16
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Is it possible she was Beckoned?
    I really doubt that she wasn't. She is Inner Circle of the Camarilla and Inconnu, she probably is more important than Hardestadt IMO.

    - Saga

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    • #17
      An in setitng reason for the changes (Hunger/reduced stats/change of disciplines) or explanation of how fluff in the history of the game was possible if not supported by the new system?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Madcello View Post
        Perhaps a hint that even a "Full Path System" will use the Convictions systems?
        We will see when we get there. Dawkins did mention today during the Twitch cast that he's not sure that the original thoughts of Sabbat methods for Convictions/Touchstones he talked about in the Gentleman Gamer videos will still be applicable. Honestly, as Khalil said, you can do just about anything with Convictions/Touchstones you could with Paths. Not 100%, but pretty close.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Illithid View Post
          An in setitng reason for the changes (Hunger/reduced stats/change of disciplines) or explanation of how fluff in the history of the game was possible if not supported by the new system?

          Odd question for the PG thread, but no. It's just treated as how some of this stuff always has been. Considering all the Level 5 Disciplines now used to be Elder Powers, it's just 'scaling' rather than removal of anything anyway.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            I'm hoping that they give the Tzimice a small retool as well.

            "A large number of Tzimisce have undergone a cleansing ritual provided by Dracula that renounces Kupala, the Eldest, and others. This has reconciled the Old Clan and the new with these Tzimsice being somewhat less insane as well as sadistic than before. These Tzimisce now call Viccisitude (or their version of it) Protean like the Gangrel."
            I barely makes sense that Dracula had the ability to enact a ritual that affects the whole clan (he had Koldunic Sorcery 5 in Children of the Night). Though I understand in a symbolic level him being the one to create it. But let's not forget that the ritual made to destroy the blood bonds used magics from Velya (who had Koldunic Sorcery 8 and if we reverse his disciplines, his embrace would be around 100 BC), Lugoj (who is statistically unknown) and Lambach Ruthven (who is claimed to be around before most organized religions, therefore, probably older than Velya).

            Here's a small list that are more appropriate for it:
            . The Dracon
            . Kartarirya
            . Demdemeh
            . Ionache
            . Ruthven (probably Lambach)
            . "Keeper of the Faith"
            . Danika Ruthven

            - Saga
            Last edited by Saga; 07-26-2019, 03:32 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Saga View Post

              I barely makes sense that Dracula had the ability to enact a ritual that affects the whole clan (he had Koldunic Sorcery 5 in Children of the Night). Though I understand in a symbolic level him being the one to create it. But let's not forget that the ritual made to destroy the blood bonds used magics from Velya (who had Koldunic Sorcery 8 and if we reverse his disciplines, his embrace would be around 100 BC), Lugoj (who is statistically unknown) and Lambach Ruthven (who is claimed to be around before most organized religions, therefore, probably older than Velya).

              Here's a small list that are more appropriate for it:
              . The Dracon
              . Kartarirya
              . Demdemeh
              . Ionache
              . Ruthven (probably Lambach)
              . "Keeper of the Faith"
              . Danika Ruthven

              - Saga
              I assumed the ritual would be done individually to those Tzimisce who want to perform it.
              -Completely Missing the Point


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by elmerg View Post
                So here are the things we got from the impromptu AMA. Note that this is just the compiled answers.



                There will be info about the current state of the Sabbat in the Player's Guide.

                It will not do mechanical rollbacks.



                The PG will be a supplement to the core rulebook - there will be material that can be used instead of the material in the corebook, but it's not intended to replace the corebook.



                Both the Ravnos and the Tzimisce and their iconic abilites will be in the PG and they will be re-imagined to some degree to fit the V5 playstyle. Especially the Ravnos' core identity will be less racial/cultural and their powers will have a different source and methodology.


                The PG will continue on the design decision to shroud the Sabbat in mystery and misinformation and will focus on the currently playable Sects and how the 13 Clans fit into them.


                There will be no alternative morality systems in the PG; V5 focuses on younger Kindred more unaware of Clan/Sect traditions and the V5 Humanity system is very modular as is and can be modified to fit very different moral codes that can approximate some paths.

                Aaaand there went my remaining interest out the window.

                Clearly, they want to go in a particular direction with this game and not really want to at least make some concessions and optional rules for the folks who had the talked-to-death misgivings with V5, like me. That's fine, I wish everyone who enjoys this edition happy gaming. For me, I'll remain with the 20ths until V6, then, we'll see, but V5 is just not my cup of tea and I don't see any real chances for that to change.


                Last edited by PMárk; 07-31-2019, 02:58 PM.


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by PMárk View Post


                  Aaaand there went my remaining interest out the window.

                  Clearly, they want to go in a particular direction with this game and not really want to at least make some concessions and optional rules to the folks who had the talked-to-death misgivings with V5, like me. That's fine, I wish everyone who enjoys this edition happy gaming. For me, I'll remain with the 20ths until V6, then, we'll see, but V5 is just not my cup of tea and I don't see any real chances for that to change.


                  Could you please explain the reason for your statement?
                  I was interested in the premise of rules that allow other rules to be viable for the player ... as old disciplines so that players can play controlling real vampires again; Do you think this fits in "using rules other than the main book"? Can I be cautiously hopeful? 🤔

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                  • #24
                    I somehow think that we are gonna get the Old Clan Tzimisce in the Players Guide, its what they have been calling it in the V5 books, which means Vicissitude might not be in the book yet (I might be wrong of course), but it is probable that the Fiends in the PGB will be the non-Sabbat remnants, which is exactly the concept of the Old Clan Tzimisce faction. I really don't care that much for having Vicissitude right now as a written Discipline (or power/amalgam of Protean), I'm more interested in being able to play the Noble/Rebel and Fiendish/Macabre Tzimisce.

                    Also, more Advantages and Flaws? Please do, I love the way they have done it in V5, although some of the most simple Merits and Flaws have been only listed contextualized in Loresheets (things like Clan merits or flaws, character background bonuses....), I really would like even more options. The V3-V20 Merits and Flaws got crazy long, redundant and out there, V5 way of making is much more elegant and streamlined. Can't wait to see what they will have.

                    I always liked the idea of the Clan of Rogues and Mystics in the Ravnos, but the execution was always terrible, I don't remember any interesting or important Ravnos character in the canon, and people always looked only at their Discipline instead of the Clan itself. Removing it from the Gypsies and Indian mold will be a healthy improvement that will add one more interesting Clan to explore in the game. [If you can't tell I really liked what they've done with the Setites, Banu Haqim and seem to be doing with the Giovanni; linking an entire Clan to a single unique culture is a gimmick and limits the scope, besides, the 13 Clans are supposed to be global, Bloodlines are more of a local thing].

                    I think talking with the Storyteller and determining the right Convictions (and maybe homebrew a different Touchstone that its not a mortal but a concept or ritual followed perhaps) and adding some Loresheets for the different Roads, is the way to do Paths in V5. And although I love some concepts of the Paths there's many who used it for a cheap way out of repercussion, and everyone that gnarled at Humanity as a boring or limited Path probably didn't get the original idea of the game very well.

                    V5 seems very well done mechanically and adding more tools to the box seems great, because the game has depth, it just needs more options.

                    At last, I'm interested to see more Alchemy formulas, more Blood Sorcery (how are they gonna do the paths? rituals? weird amalgam? independent and less limited powers by level?), Oblivion rituals (Necromancy can't lose its touch baby) and more powers can only be a good thing for the Disciplines -which by the way had some levels that only have "Draught of", which is kinda bullshrimp for some vampires- and can be very imaginative if done right.

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                    • #25
                      “I really don't care that much for having Vicissitude right now as a written Discipline (or power/amalgam of Protean)”

                      I don’t see a feasible way to combine (Fleshcraft?) Protean and Vicissitude in any satisfactory fashion, anyway. Not if you’re a fan of both Disciplines, that is. It will be too drastic a case of choosing either/or, with the end result being much less than the sum of its parts.

                      Unless it’s something where Protean can become a system similar to Oblivion, with Protean being the main Discipline and “Vicissitude” dealing more with fleshcrafting/metamorphic rituals stemming from it. Sounds weird when I type it out loud, I admit, but that would allow for both the horrific fleshcrafting we love as well as the traditional Protean shapeshifting, while also somewhat reflecting Fiend mysticism.

                      I am very curious to see how they attempt to mix them together, though. Can’t wait for the PG.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Garygeneric View Post
                        I am very curious to see how they attempt to mix them together, though. Can’t wait for the PG.
                        If I were to do it, I would combine the first 3 levels of Vicissitude on a single 3rd level Amalgam or a higher level power. This isn't hard because these powers were one the extension of the other, and could be defined as "altering flesh and bone in a very free form way". Higher level powers are mostly alternate forms for the vampire. They could be rituals or specialized Protean transmutations.

                        The obvious Discipline to combine with Protean to create Vicissitude as an Amalgam it's Blood Magic (they have a theme of body control, and there's an aestheticall link between flesh and blood since they're most oftend found together), sadly I don't think they are going to have it because their other two classic Disciplines exist. Albeit it would make sense if they did, Tzimisce are as known for their blood magicians as the Assamites. I think it would be thematically the best choice, and not the most controversial change of V5 by a long shot.
                        Last edited by Aleph; 08-15-2019, 02:35 PM.

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                        • #27
                          The issue I have with the Amalgam powers is that it's far too easy to make the iconic aspects of the clan inaccessible. Both Malkavians and Lasombra are big examples of this. If you want to be a Lasombra and use the iconic Lasombra power of Arms of Ahriman, then your only build is Obtenebration 2 Protean 2 and you are either an Alley Cat or a Scene Queen. Malkavians have it better with the Predatory Type choices (because there are predators for both Obfuscate and Dominate), but you are still locked into a One True Build.

                          On the other hand if you don't have Vicissitude, then what's the point of having the Tzimisce as a distinct clan? No one in the history of ever cared about the gimpy Ventrue that are the Old Clan Tzimisce.

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                          • #28
                            I'm really inclined to think in a similar vein as to what was described above. Many mentions of the Tzimisce in the existing books also make reference to the "Old Clan" which leads me to believe we'll see something come up in V5 metaplot (likely the PG since it will introduce the Clan) that talks about how the Old Clan Tzimisce have been making a recent resurgence, are Embracing new Childer (opening up options for standard characters and not just Elders - this may well have something to do with the Beckoning starting to lure the Old Clan Elders away). This will be our standard Tzimisce for the time being (as bringing them to the fore would leave options for them to potentially try and side with the Camarilla, Anarchs, or continue to run somewhat Independent).

                            The twisted fleshcrafters of the old editions core Clan, the ones with Vicissitude, I'm starting to think are going to be saved for the later coming Sabbat deep dive so we can use them as the monsters of our games. I'm honestly strongly inclined to believe they are going to lean on Vicissitude itself having corrupted much of the core Clan into puppets of the Antediluvian. This would position the twisted Discipline that is Vicissitude as the signature power of the "creepy monsters" Sect that the Sabbat is going to be positioned into. It will still feature other Clans of course, as the classic Antitribu versions (including any remaining Lasombra being tagged that at this point). So they get a creepy power to accompany their creepy persona and will be left more to the realm of STs as opposed to players (though I suspect we will get details on how to play the Sabbat still in a potential Sabbat book, people want to do it and it would be crazy for the brand not to exploit that desire from a business standpoint). But the inherent intent will be that these are the antagonists of your worlds (outside of the other more standard Camarilla v Anarch that V5 leans into). I could even see them lean into the Vicissitude infection for this as well, or at least adapting the concept into it being more a tool of the Ante.

                            At least, that remains my hot take on the Tzimisce to this day. I called that a while back, actually, in another thread in general passing. So far none of the released content has made me think any differently from this either.


                            -Red
                            V20 Content: Age & Potency
                            V5 Content: The Masquerade, Tzimisce and Vicissitude, Loresheet: Chicago, Resonance Flavor, Morality System
                            Development Manager, Developer at Hunters Entertainment

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                              The issue I have with the Amalgam powers is that it's far too easy to make the iconic aspects of the clan inaccessible. Both Malkavians and Lasombra are big examples of this. If you want to be a Lasombra and use the iconic Lasombra power of Arms of Ahriman, then your only build is Obtenebration 2 Protean 2 and you are either an Alley Cat or a Scene Queen. Malkavians have it better with the Predatory Type choices (because there are predators for both Obfuscate and Dominate), but you are still locked into a One True Build.

                              On the other hand if you don't have Vicissitude, then what's the point of having the Tzimisce as a distinct clan? No one in the history of ever cared about the gimpy Ventrue that are the Old Clan Tzimisce.
                              "Inaccessible at chargen" doesn't mean "not accessible at all". Gangrel are known for turning into bats, but you can't do that at character creation either.

                              Imo, if a clan ceases to be playable if you can't have one specific power at chargen, then that was a gimmick, not a clan. There's more to the Lasombra than shadow tentacles, and more to the Malkavians than making people go insane. Similarly, imo, there should be more to the Tzimisce than body horror.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Draconis View Post
                                Gangrel are known for turning into bats, but you can't do that at character creation either.
                                And that's bad.

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