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Handling Methuselah's Thirst.

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  • Handling Methuselah's Thirst.

    So it seems bad wrong unfun to have it that something like Methuselah's thirst retroactively negate say the Animalism 6 power which allows you to get more blood from animals.

    I think how Methuselah's Thirst should be like how some books handled the Nagarajah. So basically they have a need to drink Cainite Vitae, but they can still gain blood from other sources.

    I mean otherwise the fluff is very contradictory, they have had being with Methuselah's thirst, or Antediluvian's thirst, awaken and drain mortals and animals. Like I remember a story of an Ancient implied to be Gangrel awakening and eating a beast of Burden immediately. And in Final Nights Lasombra drains like a whole town/forest of blood.

    I just feel ancients should still be able to drink general blood, its just they need to regularly also drain supernatural blood. It fits a lot of the Noddist myths as the most Ancient of beings still had mythic moments where they ate blood that wasn't from a Cainite, even after they were said to have developed a hunger/addiction to Vitae.


    Do you think there is a step above Methuselah's Thirst, an Antediluvian's Thirst that requires drinking the blood of Ancients so Neonates and Thinbloods will not do?


    How do you handle it? Since it was very rules light over the years you can handle it in your game but it gets confusing when they talk about it in official resources because they never wanted to nail it down.


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    Well, it's meant to be a horrifying curse.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      I actually agree with you on that.
      There is a Vampire with MT in Chicago by Night and she has drained her own Childe the night she awoken, but since then seems to somehow survive, and Chicago vampires don't mysteriously vanish all the time.

      So I see it as something they regularly have to do, but its not their only source.

      Alright, on the other hand, it would be an easy thing for a Methusalah to embrace fresh vampires (or have one of her minions do it), have them feed on a human or two, and then just drain them completely. It would still leave a trail of dead bodies that seems pretty unsustainable over the long run.

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      • #4
        Eldagusto

        I agree Methuselah's Thirst is poorly handled. May I suggest approaching it as a communicable disease, made worse by pre-existing genetic factors and advanced age?

        In this version, a good replacement mechanic would be the Baali curse of the Assamites. It strongly encourages drinking the blood of vampires, while not outright requiring it. True, this expands the vessels the MT can feed from, but that may be balanced by the unpredictability of whether temptation will overpower common sense at a poorly chosen moment. This unpredictability would explain the discrepancies between fluff and crunch.

        It also makes sense from a meta-plot standpoint.

        Originally, in the First and Second Cities MT was known, but far from universal, even among those of very low generation and what today would be considered great age. (IIRC, Caine and the Second Gens kept vast herds of humans in the slave pits.) MT, at the time, was a personal flaw, like Smell of the Grave or Permanent Fangs, resulting from a minor error in the embrace or, like Derangements or Haunted, acquired over years of hard living.

        Millennia later, the Baali were working on a curse for the Banu Haqim, something that would bring the Judges down a peg or three. The Baali discovered a vampire who suffered from the flaw and loved the evil irony of it all. Possible suspects for the source include Haqim (a personal flaw from his embrace which explains his eagerness to discover and personally execute vampire criminals), ur-Shulgi (Which might explain how quickly he broke the curse. He entered torpor in an attempt to end the curse, and came out of torpor with 7 xp to burn. Buying off the personal flaw made the original template for the curse no longer exist.), and whoever founded the Shango (the only caste/bloodline of Assamites who uniformly suffer from the curse, which might explain why they existed so far from their main clan).

        Regardless of who "Patient Zero" was, the Baali did not actually curse the whole clan at once (a suspiciously difficult feat), they just made one flaw afflicting one member of the clan communicable in the manner of a disease carefully engineered by the Baali for maximum impact.

        This disease spreads easily to descendants of Patient Zero who have a genetic pre-disposition to it, uniformly appears in those Patient Zero embraces, and, on occasion, is transmitted through blood sharing, even of an incidental sort, such as might occur in combat. Quietus would hasten the spread of the disease among those enemies Assamites fought, but failed to destroy.

        The Baali may have designed the disease to have a short incubation period, and a prodrome lasting a few decades among the Assamites. This might explain the religious awe in which they hold diablerie, as the prodrome encourages MT without inflicting a mechanical effect. These two initial stages, lasting no longer than a century, would allow the disease to spread silently through the clan undetected before clear symptoms present. Those embraced by someone suffering from the disease would often advance to the active stage of MT in mere nights, accelerated by the changes of the embrace. In the early stages of the curse, it must have seemed all new embraces were inexplicably rising up against their sires- a terrifying prospect!

        To better target the disease, and protect themselves in the process, the Baali created a very, very long incubation period, measured in centuries for vampires not descended from Haqim. This would allow the flaw to turn up here and there among non-Assamite elders, while incubating quietly in a large number of younger vampires. Of course, a long incubation does not mean an infinite time. At some point, MT will become as common among non-Assamites as among Assamites. This could serve the Baali well in the Final Nights.

        Under my scenario, the Tremere "curse" might more properly be thought of as a treament for the disease the Baali released. Viewed in this way, Haqim's inexplicable acceptance of the curse for his clan makes more sense.

        It also explains how Assamite antitribu evaded the Tremere cur(s)e. The Aa returned to the site of the original ritual and re-infected themselves. They then spread the disease through the Vaulderie to their clan mates. To a lesser extent, this constant exposure to the disease through inter-clan blood rites might help explain the Sabbat's fixation on diablerie and blood rituals, which looks a good deal like a sub-clinical or prodromal phase of the disease.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Quatar View Post
          I actually agree with you on that.
          There is a Vampire with MT in Chicago by Night and she has drained her own Childe the night she awoken, but since then seems to somehow survive, and Chicago vampires don't mysteriously vanish all the time.

          So I see it as something they regularly have to do, but its not their only source.

          Alright, on the other hand, it would be an easy thing for a Methusalah to embrace fresh vampires (or have one of her minions do it), have them feed on a human or two, and then just drain them completely. It would still leave a trail of dead bodies that seems pretty unsustainable over the long run.
          Helena has Brett Stryker kidnap club girls, Embrace them, and lock them in the basement to feed on until she finally kills them.

          So you actually are correct on that.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            Helena has Brett Stryker kidnap club girls, Embrace them, and lock them in the basement to feed on until she finally kills them.

            So you actually are correct on that.
            Where is that from? I don't remember reading that in CbN

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Quatar View Post
              Where is that from? I don't remember reading that in CbN
              It's in Chicago by Night 2E and 5th Edition.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #8
                Methuselah's Thirst is a flaw in V20 Guide to the True Black Hand. Just don't take it if you don't want it. Problem solved.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                  It's in Chicago by Night 2E and 5th Edition.
                  Must have missed it there. Thanks.

                  Originally posted by PazuzuAxelf View Post
                  Methuselah's Thirst is a flaw in V20 Guide to the True Black Hand. Just don't take it if you don't want it. Problem solved.
                  That is a) a terrible way to answer a "how do I deal with X" question and b) there are NPCs that have it and a ST needs to know how that affects the chronicle and c) there sometimes are situations outside the player's hands that force certain things on them.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Helena has Brett Stryker kidnap club girls, Embrace them, and lock them in the basement to feed on until she finally kills them.

                    So you actually are correct on that.
                    I now know the next pc I want to play in an elder chronicle: one of those women who managed to escape, and is an elder pretender. I'm not decided whether to do a fifth gen Caitiff or Toreador.

                    As an aside, we're all agreed that "Brett Stryker" sounds like a porn name, right?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

                      I now know the next pc I want to play in an elder chronicle: one of those women who managed to escape, and is an elder pretender. I'm not decided whether to do a fifth gen Caitiff or Toreador.

                      As an aside, we're all agreed that "Brett Stryker" sounds like a porn name, right?
                      I believe it's actually his male stripper name.



                      Though as Brett's children, they'd be 8th generation. Probably so Helena doesn't run into any problems like 5th generation neonates running around and raising questions.
                      Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-23-2019, 11:08 AM.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #12
                        PazuzuAxelf

                        The original poster pointed out some fluff examples of npcs with MT seeming to ignore the flaw in particular situations. Might that not imply the RAI meaning of MT is to shift a vampire's diet away from humans to vampire blood, but allow some wiggle room for occasional "cheat days"? It looks to me like the OP is trying to reconcile the fluff, RAW rules, and the RAI rules.

                        This ain't d&d theoretical optimization. This is World of Darkness, we go with the intent not some contrived interpretation of the exact phrasing so you can do silly things like this.
                        -quote from PazuzuAxelf, in the thread on whether one can use human speech while in a Protean 4 animal form.

                        Methuselah's Thirst is a flaw in V20 Guide to the True Black Hand. Just don't take it if you don't want it. Problem solved.
                        source: same author, this thread

                        I'm a little confused.

                        I'm sorry if I'm not understanding your process for rules interpretation. Are you a proponent of: "that's the RAW rule on p XXX, of book XYZ, so that's how it is"? Or, are you saying: "while a literal reading of the rule might allow something unusual or imply a strange fact on the ground in the fictional world, we need to look at the fluff and the tradition of the rule as used in play for a RAI ruling"?

                        Also, btw, it's good to see you back on the forums, again. I remember reading your posts in the past, and it's been a while. Do I recall your name was slightly different before? It was Pazuzu-something... maybe, wolf? tiger? Maybe, I'm getting you mixed up with someone else, altogether.

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                        • #13
                          You're mixing me up with someone else I think. My user name has not changed in years.

                          Anyway, the OP said "So it seems bad wrong unfun to have it that something like Methuselah's thirst retroactively negate say the Animalism 6 power which allows you to get more blood from animals."

                          You don't like it you don't have to use it. It's a rule that doesn't really need to exist in your Chronicle if you feel like it's unfun. That's the only thing I'm insinuating in my post.

                          As far as the supposed contradictions go I don't think that's what they are at all. That Methuselah who woke and ate a whole town? No methuselah's thirst flaw, they were just really hungry and gave into the beast. The fact that *some* require potent supernatural blood doesn't mean they all do.

                          If you look back to previous versions of the game, such as the derangement "Sanguinary Cryptophagy" from Clanbook Tremere Revised edition, it's even more explicitly clear that those with this are able to feed on mortals and the like while in a frenzy and that the addiction to supernatural blood doesn't remove the ability to feed on mortal blood.

                          Regardless of how you handle it mechanically there's no need to stress over it this much.

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                          • #14
                            One of the issues is the implication that methuselah’s thirst is inevitable, though high humanity and humane behavior can stave it off but age and diablerie accelerate it. And that most Antes are implied to have, or at least that it’s common I


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #15
                              Well the Antediluvians having it is why Gehenna is feared.

                              Otherwise, its', "Hey, Cappadocius. What's up?"
                              Last edited by CTPhipps; 08-09-2019, 05:36 AM.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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