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Those who Achieved Golconda Rivaling Antes?

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  • Those who Achieved Golconda Rivaling Antes?

    So something not talked about too much is when you achieve Golconda you can access Disciplines even to the mastery level of 10. So what about Golconda achievers who have mastered greatest powers? If they are old enough why wouldn't they be as omnipotent as Antes, minus some age/exp and a lesser bloodpool.


    Like We have the African Shaman Childe of Tzimisce who achieved Metamorphisis and maybe became Plague itself. And we know many Salubri Methuselah or just Salubri in general achieved Golconda. This could explain why Samiel was able to Smite Tzimisce even though it took him out doing so.

    But to me it always seemed it opened up a lot of secret Major Mover and Shakers of the Jyhad, hence why Sutekh wanted them Dead...D-E-D... Dead! They couldn't be tamed and their power could rival the Gods.


    So have you ever even made say a Golconda achiever, what do you call them anyways since Golcondite is just those aspiring to it, who learned Discipline up to level 10?

    Would you say then they could be as mythically powerful as the Antes, especially if only being one Generation removed from them?

    Maybe mastering a Discipline opens the freedom to create your own Bloodline?

    I'm funny in that I want to play with this mechanic and Angle. Hell I think Ancient and New Golconda Achievers could totally change the nature of the game, once you have someone who is not a jerk ass taste omnipotence then they become a tangle in a lot of folks webs of plots.


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    If you're thinking in pure Dots, maybe. But I think the actual Antedeluvians are still more powerful by a long shot. For example they can simply create new Disciplines when they need it, I don't think someone on Golcanda can do that.

    Also pretty sure to achieve Golcanda your mindset has to be almost diametrically opposed to the Jyhad, so I don't think they'd take part in it afterwards again.

    And my personal head-canon is: An Antedeluvian cannot truly die unless it's at the hand of another Antedeluvian or something equally powerful. (all the "dead" ante's turn out to not actually be fully dead. Cappadocian survived into the Shadowlands, and it required the worst Maelstrom in history to take him out, Saulot is taking over Tremere, Brujah jumped through time, neither Lasombra nor Tzimisce were really killed. Set is waiting somewhere to be resurrected too. The only one is Ravnos and it took insane power incuding Archmages etc to finally take him down. And then with Chimersty 10, can we be sure that's what really happened?). I also doubt that would apply to them either.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Quatar View Post
      If you're thinking in pure Dots, maybe. But I think the actual Antedeluvians are still more powerful by a long shot. For example they can simply create new Disciplines when they need it, I don't think someone on Golcanda can do that.

      Also pretty sure to achieve Golcanda your mindset has to be almost diametrically opposed to the Jyhad, so I don't think they'd take part in it afterwards again.

      And my personal head-canon is: An Antedeluvian cannot truly die unless it's at the hand of another Antedeluvian or something equally powerful. (all the "dead" ante's turn out to not actually be fully dead. Cappadocian survived into the Shadowlands, and it required the worst Maelstrom in history to take him out, Saulot is taking over Tremere, Brujah jumped through time, neither Lasombra nor Tzimisce were really killed. Set is waiting somewhere to be resurrected too. The only one is Ravnos and it took insane power incuding Archmages etc to finally take him down. And then with Chimersty 10, can we be sure that's what really happened?). I also doubt that would apply to them either.
      Well actually according to Noddist Lore only Caine was attributed with the power to create Disciplines as the need arose. And even I have my doubts as to how complex Caine's power was. The Antes very much seemed to have to cultivate their own Disciplines, rather then pop up new powers willy nilly. I don't see why a Golcanda Vampire couldn't develop a new discipline over time, it would be just rare and uncertain, but Methuselahs have been known to do that such as the inventors of Ogham and other blood magics, as well as possibly the Legacies of the Laibon.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        Ah, did I mix up Caine and the Antes there? Quite possible, my bad then. Still I don't think an Antedeluvian and Golcanda vampire are the same power level

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
          So something not talked about too much is when you achieve Golconda you can access Disciplines even to the mastery level of 10.
          is that right?
          iirc, you can only raise attributes to 10, not disciplines


          -

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          • #6
            I think Golconda represents a kind of freedom from the vampiric curse. A state where the vampire can harmonize with it's curse to the point it's not much of a curse.

            I see the Jyhad as part of that package that's the "Curse of Caine". And not partipating on it as part of what Golconda is. In that sense I can see a vampire in Golconda rivaling Antes just enough so they can be free of their supernatural grip (at least partially). Becoming able to resist their powers (and the doom that always seem to follow their machinations) better than a 4th gen sounds thematic enough to me.

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            • #7
              Golconda is a state of grace that free the vampire from the shackles of their curse, they either become ascended predators or saints, but it's mostly rumors and hearsay whether such a thing exists. I wouldn't apply any mechanics to it, and let the ST decide what Golconda means.

              As for rivaling Antes, I wouldn't say so. Being free from all the curses of vampirism and having raw power to match the ancients are mutually exclusive.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
                I wouldn't apply any mechanics to it, and let the ST decide what Golconda means..
                I totally agree with you, unfortunately V20 did attach stats to it and even gave a checklist for players how to get there. Which I completely ignore in my game, and I'll hit every player over the head that tries to game Golcanda.

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                • #9
                  Eldagusto

                  V20, p300:

                  Vampires in Golconda occasionally enter the larger society of undead, seeking disciples whom they can guide along the path to Golconda — but only in secret, for they wish nothing to do with the Jyhad.
                  (Ambiguous grammar aside, I assume it is the mentor who avoids Jyhad, though probably the disciples, as well. This is one of those rare instances where avoiding the singular "they" would be helpful... but, I digress.)

                  Power, indiscriminate feeding, and the games of the Jyhad are to be avoided by vampires seeking the higher path.
                  ibid

                  They do this because...

                  A vampire in Golconda must maintain rigid standards of physical and mental purity. Should his Humanity rating ever slip below 7, or his Conscience rating ever fall below 4, the vampire loses all benefits of Golconda, including heightened Traits.
                  Pleiades

                  Furthermore, a vampire in Golconda partly transcends the Curse binding his own Blood to the fount of Caine. In so doing, he may increase any Trait to as high as 10, regardless of Generation. His blood pool remains as it was, though.
                  ibid

                  Your point remains somewhat valid for practical purposes, of course. The rule does not say the trait automatically rises. It costs 45xp to raise an in-clan discipline from 9 to 10, which assumes a best-case scenario of having a level 9 discipline to begin with. How hard would it be to accrue this much experience while just blissing out and pondering the glory of the universe?

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                  • #10
                    Well I mean you normally bow out of the Jyhad when on Golconda but just by not dying you play a part in its end game whether you want to or not.


                    And Golconda Vampires can still have hobbies or interests like history or sorcery.


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #11
                      White Wolf has always been great for building systems about how you mess up, but at best they drop vague hints about what happens when you do things right. This happened with Vampire Golconda as well as being freed from the Great Curse when converting a Solar exalt to an Abyssal and then back to a Solar again.

                      The Antediluvians are supposed to have been around for so long that they have done everything, tried everything, seen the patterns of reality play out so many time that they might be considered precognitive just due to experience. This also extends to their Vampiric psychology and emotions. Their beast is just another part of them, a single facet on an elaborate gemstone. Golconda more or less seems to offer the exact same psychological and emotional benefits, with the added bonus that by some how balancing these aspects, the restrictions on generational power are lifted.

                      With this in mind, I would say that Golconda could be a way of describing the vampiric equivalent to Precocious Puberty. Achieving the balance in a few scant centuries what would require the average vampire several millennia to achieve naturally, assuming they survive that long.

                      Since vampires are usually created from adult humans, it is easy to fall into the trap that they are already matured beings which just get fangs added on. Instead it could be quite possible that by being turned into a vampire you affectively reset your existence back to an infantile state, which then takes thousands of years to mature and grow. This view would go a long way to explaining the petulant and emotional nature of most vampires and the issues with self regulation.

                      This mental and emotional maturation process would also explain the distancing from the Jyhad and other aspects of vampire society. There is a reason why your average 65 year old isn't going crazy for the latest young adult novel series or becoming deeply invested in the plot of a children's tv show, they have seen it all before and it doesn't offer them anything.

                      With this in mind a relatively young vampire who achieves Golconda would be the equivalent to the child characters you get in stories who grew up fast and are functional adults, paying bills, working jobs, etc. before they could legally drive and most of their compatriots are still chasing what ever the most recent fad is.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Quatar View Post

                        Also pretty sure to achieve Golcanda your mindset has to be almost diametrically opposed to the Jyhad, so I don't think they'd take part in it afterwards again.
                        Not just the Jyhad, I believe the process needed to achieve Golconda involves you rejecting as much of your Vampiric nature as possible. To me, refining and mastering Disciplines would be counter intuitive to that. If your goal is to turn your back on the state of vampirism, honing it's otherworldly abilities is doing the exact opposite of that.

                        Also, there's the fact that Golconda is apparently a once in a life time achievement. Meaning that if you suffer a relapse back into your old ways, you can never achieve Golconda again, and that means all those cool level 10 disciplines are lost to you forever, unless you suck down an Antedeluvian's soul.

                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        Well actually according to Noddist Lore only Caine was attributed with the power to create Disciplines as the need arose.

                        Actually, Noddist Lore states that Caine learned the power of disciplines from Lilith... then promptly told her to fuck off, for reasons which are unknown to me.

                        As for Lilith herself, she learned the power of disciplines from associating with Angels and Demons. Which gives me a headcannon idea that Infernalists might be able to create new disciplines, as a reward for serving their Demonic patrons.
                        Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-23-2019, 06:27 PM.

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