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What will happen if the Second Generations appear?

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  • What will happen if the Second Generations appear?

    Hello everyone! This is just a dump topic for fun.

    So IIRC the death of the 2nd Gens is uncertain in V20 and V5. In DAV20’s “Tome of Secrets” a mystical vampire called “Patron” is suspected to be Irad by Vykos. In BJD’s “the Omega” Beckett seemed to dig a coffin containing Enoch up and there is even an optional scenario where Enoch may awaken. Needless to say that stone which maybe the Zillah in the lengend of Black Hand.

    So what will happen if “long-gone” 2nd Gens appears in this world?

    “2nd Gens” may not be limited to true “Antes”, they can also be Meths or even Elders who was embraced by Caine after the Flood.

  • #2
    There are a lot of variables here. It depends on the temperament of the 2nd Generation involved. BJD gives multiple options for how Enoch responds, from being a consultant to being a raving monster. That said, I have often thought the result creature behind the jyhad to be one of 2nd Generation, manipulating and punishing the 3rd generation. Caine is no longer involved.

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    • #3
      Well, the known 2nd gens -that is Caine's direct childer embraced in the First City or before- may be little different from Caine himself. IIRC, the weakening of the blood from generation wasn't a thing until the 3rd gen.

      This is very bad news for the 3rd gen because the last anyone verifiably sighted the 2nd gen they were being killed (well, "killed-ish" given their power levels) by their childer. Vampires, of any generation or age, are not known for their forgiving natures.

      If the 2nd gen arise, my guess is some or all of the 3rd gen wind up truly destroyed, thereby decapitating a bunch of clans. Most at risk are the younger 3rd gens: Giovanni, Tremere, and Brujah, assuming the 2nd gens even have a beef with them. After all, it was the others who rose up and killed the 2nd gen. The usurper clans killed people the 2nd gen presumably hated, an alliance might be in the making.

      Given that no 3rd gen clan founder is known to have been truly destroyed, it's hard to say what impact the loss of antedeluvians would have. In the cases of known clans whose Antedeluvian was thought destroyed, there was not much immediate effect on lesser clan members. Cappadocians, for example, kept a similar set of clan disciplines, and a similar clan weakness. Oh, they took it on the chin from the Giovanni purge and some members were changed by choosing to hide in the Shadowlands. Neither of were a direct metaphysical effect of their Ante being beaten.

      Ravnos is a different situation, of course, because he appears to have been truly destroyed. How true that is may be up for debate. Between Chimerstry and Fortitude, it should be laughably easy to fake your death. Let's assume he was destroyed, for the sake of discussion. If all the major clans suffer a similar psychic backlash, I think the end result is obvious. All the major clans are decimated, and their population drops to a level similar to that of the smaller bloodlines. We would be left with a world in which there is no obvious difference in power between the Ventrue and the Samedi, or the Toreador and the Tlacique.

      A few unanswered pieces of canon which matter a great deal in a scenario in which the 2nd gen, as a group, arise:
      • What is the relationship among the 2nd gen? Are they collegial allies, sworn enemies, or do they just ignore one another? Last we saw, they were defending themselves against a common enemy. If the 2nd gen have unity in pursuit of their current goals, that's far different from a divided group.
      • Who are the 2nd gen? We know of three, but how many others did Caine embrace who survived? The Setites and Assamites both count their generation as if their founders were 2nd gen. If they are right, that would put Haqim and Set back on the playing board as active 2nd gens, and likely mean the end of those clans' traditional rivals. (It would also answer a lot of questions about how the castes arose.)
      • Have the 2nd gen been inactive all this time? If so, they may have more raw power than the 3rd, but not the experience. This prevents it from being an easy win for the 2nd gens. It's still unlikely the 3rd survive in the long run, if the 2nd want them gone.
      • What woke the 2nd gen? (It would be fun irony if it was Ravnos' true death, as all the weig he accumulated was released at once!) If there was a single event which woke them, look to that for their motivations and goals.
      • How do other supernaturals react? We know the Technocracy's plan for an awakening 3rd gen was pretty much "Hulk smash!" Could they, or anyone else, do anything for or against the 2nd gen?
      • What role does the True Hand play in all of this? They tend to exclude usurper clans, and serve their antes, while paradoxically claiming to venerate various earlier vampiric ancestors, including Caine, Lilith, and the 2nd gen. They also have a habit of accepting weird little blood-lines with no 3rd gen. Who do they side with if half their idols fight the other half? If they remain unified, and their numbers are preserved because so many of their members didn't have Antes to generate a Ravnos-style tpk, the True Hand might be on the upswing.
      • How the Sabbat reacts is complicated. They claim to oppose the 3rd gen, and serve Caine. Noddist lore would hold up the 2nd gen as vampires to be emulated. Do the rank and file continue to support this idea when the vampires who ancient blood-gods are afraid of start walking the streets? Sabbat members are not known for dealing with authority figures very well, and the 2nd gen has a history around rebellious descendants. Even if the Sabbat wants to serve them, I doubt it lasts.
      • What is the actual relationship between the Camarilla, and the 3rd gen who rose up against the 2nd? Most of their members (Ventrue, Gangrel, Malkavians, Toreador) are descended from Antes who rose up. The Brujah and Tremere antes had nothing to do with it, and so who knows? The Nosferatu are a special case. They and their Ante hate each other, and so, the Sewer Rats are the most likely clan to develop a working relationship with the 2nd gen. I think the Cam might just go to shit.

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      • #4
        Like Grumpy said, it largely depends on the mindset of the 2nd when they wake. Most of the 3rd gens are fucked, due to the whole uprising thing.

        That's if it's the original 3. If there are any post flood embraces then it's a slightly different story. The power gap between the 2nd and 3rd gens is due to age/experience, as the weakening didn't kick in until after the uprising. So both generations have the same potential. Any newer 2nd gens wouldn't have the experience to be gods to even blood-gods.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
          That's if it's the original 3. If there are any post flood embraces then it's a slightly different story. The power gap between the 2nd and 3rd gens is due to age/experience, as the weakening didn't kick in until after the uprising. So both generations have the same potential. Any newer 2nd gens wouldn't have the experience to be gods to even blood-gods.
          I also agree with Grumpy and you.

          So... can I think that the 2nd Gens who was embraced after the Flood is just the same as the 4th Gens in potential? Can a 2nd Gens Meth or Elder still become a hot topic in the whole cainite society If he rise from the torpor and appear in the public?

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          • #6
            Consider how old the second generation were when they Embraced their childer. That would tell you something about their power level when / if they wake.


            Matthew Dawkins
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            • #7
              Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
              Consider how old the second generation were when they Embraced their childer. That would tell you something about their power level when / if they wake.
              And despite that age they still got taken out. Makes you wonder if Caine wasn't removing his younger competition by manipulating their own childer. Efficient and ironic all in one smooth package.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Shadows and Dust View Post

                And despite that age they still got taken out. Makes you wonder if Caine wasn't removing his younger competition by manipulating their own childer. Efficient and ironic all in one smooth package.
                That was due to numbers. They had most, if not all, of the 3rd teaming up with an unknown number of 4th gens surprise attacking them.

                Also, supposedly Absimiliard was the one that came up with the idea to take down the 2nd because he hated Zillah for scarring him during his embrace.
                Last edited by Kael03; 07-29-2019, 11:06 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
                  Consider how old the second generation were when they Embraced their childer. That would tell you something about their power level when / if they wake.
                  Will we get any more info about 3-4 gens, their goals, their plots and their powers for v5 sometime down the line?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
                    Consider how old the second generation were when they Embraced their childer. That would tell you something about their power level when / if they wake.
                    Sorry... But which book mentions that how old 2nd Gens were when they embraced their children...

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

                      Sorry... But which book mentions that how old 2nd Gens were when they embraced their children...
                      The Book of Nod has the Antediluvians at around 10,000 years old, at least (putting their embrace at circa 8,000 B.C). Enoch, the first of the 2nd gens, was originally the king of the first city. Civilization has been believed to have started in early Sumer, circa 10,000 B.C. By being King of the first form of civilization it can be inferred that Enoch was close to 2,000 years old when he started embracing.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kael03 View Post

                        The Book of Nod has the Antediluvians at around 10,000 years old, at least (putting their embrace at circa 8,000 B.C). Enoch, the first of the 2nd gens, was originally the king of the first city. Civilization has been believed to have started in early Sumer, circa 10,000 B.C. By being King of the first form of civilization it can be inferred that Enoch was close to 2,000 years old when he started embracing.
                        Emmm but I remember different books have debate about this.

                        And to be honest the Book of Nod itself is... a little unreliable, at least. It has many mistakes.

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