Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

True Brujah

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    Their disciplines make no sense. If Celerity grew out of Temporis, how did other clans, which we know were contemporaneous, have Celerity already? How does a line whose weakness is approximately "they have no emotions", wind up having Presence, a discipline whose entire concept is based on projecting and manipulating emotions? Oh, and they're scholars, yet lack the one discipline common to scholarly clans: Auspex.
    I liked the implications in some of the later Dark Ages books, that the "True" Brujah and Temporis were the result of some mad science they and some of Carthage's Assamites did with Celerity, and everything else is lies and flimsy justifications.

    Comment


    • #32
      Spitballing another theory, in which both the Brujah and the True Brujah are sort of right.
      Oh, and Trujah winds up saving the universe.
      Bear with me, it gets repetitious...
      • In the beginning, Trujah, the founder of the True Brujah bloodline, is not embraced in the First City. Trujah was embraced sometime after the fall of Carthage, and before the end of Gehenna. Doesn't matter when. Heck, it could be next week. Trujah must be a Fourth Gen, either by embrace or diablerie.
      • Trujah develops an elder Celerity power, level 9, which allows Time Travel, a side-effect of which is the loss of emotions. Maybe, you can't transport your soul, or, maybe, because, you know, magic. Whatever, he loses the heartfuzzies.
      • Trujah travels to the First City and fails to diablerize his sire, but Trujah don't care.
      • Trujah travels to the First City and fails to diablerize his sire, but Trujah don't care.
      • Trujah travels to the First City, and diablerizes his own sire, often known as Brujah. How? Because his ST was feeling permissive. (Or, maybe just tired of the recursive time travel.)
      • Trujah then joins in the rebellion against the 2nd gen. It fails, but Trujah don't care.
      • Trujah then joins in the rebellion against the 2nd gen. It fails, but Trujah don't care.
      • Trujah then joins in the rebellion against the 2nd gen. It succeeds. Meh, whatever. Trujah don't care.
      • Later, it rains. A lot.
      • Brujah's other childer are... annoyed at their new dad's behavior. Like cosmic scream of rage annoyed. This makes all their descendants angry, all the time.
      • Trujah hangs out for a few thousand years. Whatever, Trujah don't care.
      • Trujah meets the Baali. They want him on their side. Bad. You see, with time travel on their side, they can break the universe. Whatever, Trujah don't care.
      • Picture the Organ Pit, while Trujah is just hanging out, looking at corpses or whatever, he accidentally embraces one. Oops.
      • Trujah Junior, is just as emotionless as Trujah. She wanders off, embracing a few people as the True Brujah line. Whatever, Trujah don't care.
      • Carthage happens. The Brujah decide they like Trujah, or at least don't not-like him. Whatever, Trujah don't care.
      • Carthage falls. Brujah angry. Whatever, Trujah don't care.
      • Trujah decides it will be easier going into a time bubble, and waiting for Gehenna there.
      • Gehenna happens. Just as Trujah is about to be destroyed, he wakes up, looks around, decides he would rather not be in this situation. Maybe, he can do better if he tries again?
      • Bear with me, it gets repetitious...
      • In the beginning, Trujah, the founder of the True Brujah bloodline, is not embraced in the First City. Trujah was embraced sometime after the fall of Carthage, and before the end of Gehenna. Doesn't matter when. Heck, it could be next week. Trujah must be a Fourth Gen, either by embrace or diablerie.
      • And, repeat.

      Comment


      • #33
        Nosimplehiway while it is definitely not what the dev planned form the start, the idea of (The Antidiluvian with Time Travel Powers) being embraced after all the rest while also being older than them could work.

        They could even be embraced as a 3rd generation by a remaining second generation during Gehenna, living a fair amount of existence backwards.

        Comment


        • #34
          Alot of the True Brujah has always felt like there was... way too much going on with them. The time-travel stuff, the 'we're the true inheritors of the antediluvian', being tied to the Black Hand, being opposed to the Brujah (just like the antitribu but not!), etc. Strip away some of that and they might feel more distinctive. For example I never minded the contrast (calm/controlled as opposed to emotional/rebellious) or the interesting idea that Temporis is tied to the vampiric stasis of the body and Celerity is a bastardized version of it. Messing with time in limited/brief ways (or employing the stasis) make some sense and is distinctive, but it wouldn't require the 'Time Lord Vampire' idea you sometimes get.

          I also like this idea that many of the physical disciplines may be a 'debased' version of some greater power. Like we know from Ghouls: Fatal Addiction that Potence is 'half telekinetic' so you could see it as a debased form of something like.. movement of the mind.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
            Alot of the True Brujah has always felt like there was... way too much going on with them. The time-travel stuff, the 'we're the true inheritors of the antediluvian', being tied to the Black Hand, being opposed to the Brujah (just like the antitribu but not!), etc. Strip away some of that and they might feel more distinctive. For example I never minded the contrast (calm/controlled as opposed to emotional/rebellious) or the interesting idea that Temporis is tied to the vampiric stasis of the body and Celerity is a bastardized version of it. Messing with time in limited/brief ways (or employing the stasis) make some sense and is distinctive, but it wouldn't require the 'Time Lord Vampire' idea you sometimes get.

            I also like this idea that many of the physical disciplines may be a 'debased' version of some greater power. Like we know from Ghouls: Fatal Addiction that Potence is 'half telekinetic' so you could see it as a debased form of something like.. movement of the mind.
            What would Fortitude be based off of? Protean? Necromancy? Obeah/Valeran? I personally don't like this angle since the physical disciplines have always come across as the most basic, natural extension of physical functions. Then again, the Celerity I use is less about speed and more about all forms of motion and agility, but that's just trading one physical element for a more generalized one.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by The Dreamweaver View Post

              What would Fortitude be based off of? Protean? Necromancy? Obeah/Valeran? I personally don't like this angle since the physical disciplines have always come across as the most basic, natural extension of physical functions. Then again, the Celerity I use is less about speed and more about all forms of motion and agility, but that's just trading one physical element for a more generalized one.
              I guess that depends on how you think Fortitude works. I skipped that one because there was no fluff-based motives the way you have Potence being 'half telekinetic' and Celerity being a variation of Temporis. There are powers and descriptions that can HINT at such things, just as powers like 'Fist of Caine' and 'Flick' hint at Potence's being more than muscle power, or how 'momentum' or 'projectile' hint at Celerity being more than just velocity. But lacking those fluff qualifiers I mentioned, it's alot more speculative.

              As for the others.. they don't need it? I specifically said 'physical' disciplines because the other powers generally don't come off as 'bastardized'. I suppose you could try it with say Auspex but even that one tends to be a bit more complicted than Potence, Fortitude or Celerity. And many of those more 'complicated' powers can have variations even at low levels already, so that would complicate any such explanation imho.

              Comment


              • #37
                Why is everyone saying Celerity came from Temporis? Its supposedly a refinement of Celerity. And that makes more sense. It would be "can move so fast time becomes malleable" instead of "I derped when trying to run faster, now I can alter time".

                Comment


                • #38
                  While I agree with the above, I dont like the idea of celerity coming from Temporis.

                  If you imagine giving magic that requires discipline and practice to a short tempered short sighted individual, he may stop at what is easy and immediate only exploring aspects that affect himself, changing Temporis into Celerity once he goes on to explain what he was too angry to understand in the first place.

                  "Idk do this and you go fast like wayy fast and f**k him up!"

                  Edit: Also on failure to learn, "Urghhh! I don't get it!" and the angry Brujah flies out into the night to frenzy.
                  Last edited by Talvas; 08-16-2019, 03:11 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Celerity being a degenerated form of Temporis does a good job of legitimizing and lifting up the True Brujah, if that’s what the Storyteller wants to do with them, but it leaves every other clan that has Celerity as a clan discipline out of the loop. They’re all as delegitimized as the descendants of Troile, reframed as too unsophisticated to figure out how one of their own clan disciplines really works. It repeats a lot of the bad ideas from the original “Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand” book.

                    I’d rather see Temporis, if it has to exist, be a form of or amalgam of Blood Sorcery with prerequisite ranks in Celerity, similar to how I’m assuming they’re going to make Tzimisce fleshcrafting work with Protean.
                    Last edited by Reasor; 08-16-2019, 03:28 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      By my reckoning Temporis doesn't master time, but at the powers of 8-10 you start to be able to cheat time. But what if you combo Temporis with other Disciplines, I can see Ilyes combining Temporalis with ancient Blood Sorcery to help fill in the gaps. After all we have that Sadhana Rite that actually is Time Travel, but it exists in an apocryphal state so you can ignore it if you want but its cool. I can see Ilyes using Blood Sorcery to say steer Temporalis, like Temporalis provides the Warp Engine for the Enterprise and Sorcery provides say the Bridge that Ilyes/Jean Luc Picard can use to make commands like pluck a Titan of stone from a Mountain in the present, or summon a reincarnation of a Hero of the past.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Is Saulot splitting his Hun and P’o saucer separation in this model?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Well the thing about Celerity is that it obviously isn't just pure velocity, the same as Potence isn't just physical strength. Given certain powers like 'projectile' as I said, but also because if you were just moving faster that should argue that celerity (from game mechanics) should also be increasing damage as well as multiple attacks (Force, KE, and momentum will ALSO increase as speed goes up, remember.) Temporis is tied to time manipulation resulting from Vampiric immortality in the revised storyteller handbook, and Time manipulation is about the only way I could think of for most celerity powers. You could try teleportation to explain things like 'projectile' I suppose and it would also work in some fashion with others (like Zephr, or precision or that one combo discipline tied to making art) but I'm not sure 'VAMPIRE TELEPORTERS' sounds any less bizarre than time manipulation.

                          The explanation isn't what bugs me, it's what some of the powers can do (Especially the upper tier ones.) A certain amount of short term temporal manipulation or time dilation makes sense, but turning yourself into a vampiric time machine just sounds like you're going above and beyond 'playing with vampire stasis' as described in the handbook. At least as something that isn't a Level 10 'Plot device' discipline.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            As for the whole what came first, the chicken or the egg, is there not one of the gehenna scenarios where Troile the Elder returns, and look at the true brujah and are like 'wait what, who are you?'

                            Anyway.
                            The real problem with True Brujah are the clan flaw. The discipline are mechanically balanced, a bit weaker than celerity in combat but more versatile. The story is alright, decendants of the Original brujah, pissed that their antedeluvian got diablized... not unlike the Salubri and all the capadocian bloodlines.

                            But the Clan flaw really makes it impossible to act true to the clan flaw and stereotype of the clan and add positively to the group. As have been pointed out, either the result are someone without an ounce of empathy or someone without an ounce of ambition and goals.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by lycaniz View Post
                              As for the whole what came first, the chicken or the egg, is there not one of the gehenna scenarios where Troile the Elder returns, and look at the true brujah and are like 'wait what, who are you?'
                              Ilyes, the original Brujah Antediluvian, popped back into the time stream, heard about the True Brujah claims, and basically said "the fuck you're descended from me. I only embraced Troile and even that was a mistake."

                              The Gehenna book isn't fully canon, though.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                                Celerity being a degenerated form of Temporis does a good job of legitimizing and lifting up the True Brujah, if that’s what the Storyteller wants to do with them, but it leaves every other clan that has Celerity as a clan discipline out of the loop. They’re all as delegitimized as the descendants of Troile, reframed as too unsophisticated to figure out how one of their own clan disciplines really works. It repeats a lot of the bad ideas from the original “Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand” book.

                                I’d rather see Temporis, if it has to exist, be a form of or amalgam of Blood Sorcery with prerequisite ranks in Celerity, similar to how I’m assuming they’re going to make Tzimisce fleshcrafting work with Protean.
                                I'd rather a simpler explanation: the True Brujah have it backwards (what a surprise, since they're time travelers). Celerity is not a degeneration of Temporis. Temporis is an expansion of Celerity. A Discipline that takes the basic time manipulation powers of Celerity and takes it further beyond.

                                This would first explain why a whole bunch of Clans have Celerity, but only a small bloodline has Temporis. Celerity came first - probably invented by one of the Second Generation, or even by Caine himself - and then the True Brujah founder started pushing at the limits of what it could do.

                                It would also imply that the True Brujah aren't, well, the True Brujah, but rather are just another deviation off the main Clan. Its members having built up the idea of themselves as the inheritors of the Clan's "true legacy", to make themselves feel more important. (Ironic for a bloodline known for their difficulty in feeling anything at all).


                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X